Sorcerer with Domain Access (Complete Champion) -- how does this work?

[Pazu]

I'm hoping someone can help me puzzle out the wording in this alternative class feature for sorcerers.

For those who haven't read Complete Champion yet, the relevant text follows:

You do not learn a new 1st-level sorcerer spell and a new 2nd-level sorcerer spell at 5th level. From now on, you know one less [sic] sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level (not counting the domain spells from this alternative class feature.

The benefit is that you choose one domain and gain its granted power, as well as being able to cast "one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain."

Questions:

1. Does this mean the sorcerer gives up one 1st-level spell known and one 2nd-level spell known, or does he also give up one spell known of each subsequent level as well?

2. When a typical sorcerer reaches 6th level, he learns one (1) 3rd-level sor/wiz spell. With this class feature, does he not gain this spell, but instead receives the ability to cast his 3rd-level domain spell once a day? This sorcerer doesn't get a 3rd-level sor/wiz spell until 7th level?

3. With the increasing number of alternative class features that require the sorcerer to give up one or more spells known, can we eventually build a sorcerer who never learns any spells at all?

No one has bothered to reply to these questions on the Wizards boards, so I'm hoping some folks here might have some perspectives. Thanks!

Edit: Fixed a pronoun-antecedent disagreement.

 

[Corsair]

So for all of level 6 he can only use his 3rd level slots to cast 2nd level spells? (except for his one domain spell)? That kinda sucks.

 

[Pazu]

Well, that's one of the things I'm trying to figure out.

Primarily because, as you say, it's kind of lame. But also because the other "give up spells known" alternative class feature I'm familiar with (OK, that's only Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage) specifies that they still know a minimum of one (1) spell from the levels they can normally access.

So I'm wondering if Domain Access was supposed to work the same way.

 

[rgard]

I'm hoping someone can help me puzzle out the wording in this alternative class feature for sorcerers.

For those who haven't read Complete Champion yet, the relevant text follows:

You do not learn a new 1st-level sorcerer spell and a new 2nd-level sorcerer spell at 5th level. From now on, you know one less [sic] sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level (not counting the domain spells from this alternative class feature.

The benefit is that you choose one domain and gain its granted power, as well as being able to cast "one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain."

Questions:

1. Does this mean the sorcerer gives up one 1st-level spell known and one 2nd-level spell known, or does he also give up one spell known of each subsequent level as well?

2. When a typical sorcerer reaches 6th level, he learns one (1) 3rd-level sor/wiz spell. With this class feature, does he not gain this spell, but instead receives the ability to cast his 3rd-level domain spell once a day? This sorcerer doesn't get a 3rd-level sor/wiz spell until 7th level?

3. With the increasing number of alternative class features that require the sorcerer to give up one or more spells known, can we eventually build a sorcerer who never learns any spells at all?

No one has bothered to reply to these questions on the Wizards boards, so I'm hoping some folks here might have some perspectives. Thanks!

Edit: Fixed a pronoun-antecedent disagreement.

It sounds to me that you are trading out one arcane spell per level known for one divine (domain) spell per level known.

Edit: and you are limited to casting one divine per level per day.

 

[Pazu]

It sounds to me that you are trading out one arcane spell per level known for one divine (domain) spell per level known.

Edit: and you are limited to casting one divine per level per day.

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, but I think it could potentially be a pretty hard hit for the sorcerer who takes it.

I also wonder--is the domain spell considered a divine or arcane spell? Does it count as "being able to cast 3rd-level spells" for purposes of PrC prerequisites? Can the sorcerer scribe it to a scroll? Is it a divine or arcane scroll in this case? Presumably spell level access, save DCs, and such are still Charisma-based?

 

[rgard]

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, but I think it could potentially be a pretty hard hit for the sorcerer who takes it.

I also wonder--is the domain spell considered a divine or arcane spell? Does it count as "being able to cast 3rd-level spells" for purposes of PrC prerequisites? Can the sorcerer scribe it to a scroll? Is it a divine or arcane scroll in this case? Presumably spell level access, save DCs, and such are still Charisma-based?

As a DM, I would let the 3rd level divine spell meet the qualification for a PrC. My take on that req. is that is a power level gauge.

The Arcane Disciple feat in Complete Divine says to use the wis mod for DCs and the like, so I would probably use that in this one too.

On the question as to consider it a divine or arcane spell for scribing, we are discussing something like this over in the rules section. Two of us think that an arcane heal spell scribed this way would only be useable by another sorcerer or wizard (using the arcane disciple instead of this class alternative) with the same feat and same domain. Otherwise all divine domain spells would eventually end up on the arcane spell list.

Thanks,
Rich

Edit: oops, both threads are here in the rules section.

 

[rgard]

Here is the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=197209

 

[ThirdWizard]

I also wonder--is the domain spell considered a divine or arcane spell? Does it count as "being able to cast 3rd-level spells" for purposes of PrC prerequisites? Can the sorcerer scribe it to a scroll? Is it a divine or arcane scroll in this case? Presumably spell level access, save DCs, and such are still Charisma-based?

Sorcerers cast arcane spells so it is arcane. A scroll of one of these spells scribed by a sorcerer is an arcane scroll. So, if a sorcerer knows cure light wounds and scribes it into a scroll, then any arcane caster with cure light wounds on their spell list can use that scroll; this is the same as how a bard works.

 

[Pazu]

The Arcane Disciple feat in Complete Divine says to use the wis mod for DCs and the like, so I would probably use that in this one too.

So the sorcerer would eventually need a 19 Wisdom in order to cast his highest-level domain spell? I'm not sure I like that; he might as well take the Arcane Disciple feat then, rather than this alternative class feature.

On the question as to consider it a divine or arcane spell for scribing, we are discussing something like this over in the rules section. Two of us think that an arcane heal spell scribed this way would only be useable by another sorcerer or wizard (using the arcane disciple instead of this class alternative) with the same feat and same domain. Otherwise all divine domain spells would eventually end up on the arcane spell list.

Anyone remember if the section on gaining additional domains in Complete Divine addresses this issue?

 

[rgard]

So the sorcerer would eventually need a 19 Wisdom in order to cast his highest-level domain spell? I'm not sure I like that; he might as well take the Arcane Disciple feat then, rather than this alternative class feature.

Yes, I was wondering how different the alternative class feature and the feat are. The sound the same in practice, but that you get the domain power with the alternative.

Thanks,
Rich