Sorceror build question

[Dan'L]

Can a Sorceror with:

- Acid Orb (lvl 1 At-will; includes "Special: this power can be used as a ranged basic attack")

and

- Sorcerous Blade Channeling (feat; includes "when you use any ranged sorcerer attack bower through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack")

use a dagger to make a melee basic attack with the Acid Orb power as an OA? My reading is yes, but I want to make sure this isn't just wishful thinking.

-Dan'L

 

[mach1.9pants]

Nope I am afraid you are wrong. Sor Blade Chan feat gives you the ability to use any ranged attack as a melee attack with a range of melee with your dagger..i.e. not provoking OAs. Just because one your powers is a RBA doesn't mean you can use it with Sor Blade Chan it morphs into a MBA, is is (as the feat says) a melee attack only.
Sorry

 

[Nifft]

Reaper's Touch (Dragon 372), however, does let you turn Acid Orb into a Melee Basic Attack.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dan'L]

Nope I am afraid you are wrong. Sor Blade Chan feat gives you the ability to use any ranged attack as a melee attack with a range of melee with your dagger..i.e. not provoking OAs. Just because one your powers is a RBA doesn't mean you can use it with Sor Blade Chan it morphs into a MBA, is is (as the feat says) a melee attack only.
Sorry

???

I'm going to ask you to clarify the wording of that last bit; you lost me somewhere in the details of the syntax.

To clarify my original thought:
1 - Acid Orb is a Sorcerer Attack Power (SAP).
2 - Acid Orb carries a special feature that it may be used as a ranged basic attack (RBA).
3 - As far as I can tell, this RBA is still Acid Orb and carries all the effects, keywords, etc. of that power; i.e. it is still a ranged SAP, has implement, acid, and arcane keywords and does NOT have the weapon keyword of RBA.
4 - Sorcerous Blade Channeling (SBC) allows a ranged SAP to be channeled through a dagger and be used as a melee attack.
5 - Therefore, the RBA SAP "Acid Orb" becomes a Melee Basic Attack Sorceror Attack Power.

Are you indicating that you read Acid Orb to mean that it becomes an RBA just as it is written on PHB 287, and therefore Acid Orb is somehow no longer a "Sorceror Attack" power but only and uniquely a "Basic Attack" power? (If so, be careful; this could open up an argument that Acid Orb (and Magic Missile and Eldtritch Blast) used as an RBA have the Weapon keyword, and that a sorceror using EITHER a dagger or staff would always be best served to use Acid Orb as an RBA and get the proficiency bonus to hit; somehow I don't think this is RAI.)

Are you indicating that Acid Orb used as an RBA SAP and channeled through a dagger with SBC is a melee attack, but somehow no longer a Basic Attack?

Or are you indicating that Acid Orb channeled through a dagger with SBC is becomes a melee attack that can be used as a ranged basic attack?

So I guess that my read would modify my list above:
3.5 - Acid Orb used as a Ranged Basic Attack is both a "Basic Attack" and a "Sorceror Attack" power.

Overall, I don't think this would be terribly overpowering; most Sorcerors probably don't want to linger on the skirmish line long enough to take OAs or be a TacLord's poke buddy.

-Dan'L

 

[Eldorian]

???

I'm going to ask you to clarify the wording of that last bit; you lost me somewhere in the details of the syntax.

To clarify my original thought:
1 - Acid Orb is a Sorcerer Attack Power (SAP).
2 - Acid Orb carries a special feature that it may be used as a ranged basic attack (RBA).
3 - As far as I can tell, this RBA is still Acid Orb and carries all the effects, keywords, etc. of that power; i.e. it is still a ranged SAP, has implement, acid, and arcane keywords and does NOT have the weapon keyword of RBA.
4 - Sorcerous Blade Channeling (SBC) allows a ranged SAP to be channeled through a dagger and be used as a melee attack.
5 - Therefore, the RBA SAP "Acid Orb" becomes a Melee Basic Attack Sorceror Attack Power.

Are you indicating that you read Acid Orb to mean that it becomes an RBA just as it is written on PHB 287, and therefore Acid Orb is somehow no longer a "Sorceror Attack" power but only and uniquely a "Basic Attack" power? (If so, be careful; this could open up an argument that Acid Orb (and Magic Missile and Eldtritch Blast) used as an RBA have the Weapon keyword, and that a sorceror using EITHER a dagger or staff would always be best served to use Acid Orb as an RBA and get the proficiency bonus to hit; somehow I don't think this is RAI.)

Are you indicating that Acid Orb used as an RBA SAP and channeled through a dagger with SBC is a melee attack, but somehow no longer a Basic Attack?

Or are you indicating that Acid Orb channeled through a dagger with SBC is becomes a melee attack that can be used as a ranged basic attack?

So I guess that my read would modify my list above:
3.5 - Acid Orb used as a Ranged Basic Attack is both a "Basic Attack" and a "Sorceror Attack" power.

Overall, I don't think this would be terribly overpowering; most Sorcerors probably don't want to linger on the skirmish line long enough to take OAs or be a TacLord's poke buddy.

-Dan'L

5 doesn't follow. Just because it's a basic attack with range melee touch doesn't make it a Melee Basic Attack. Oddly enough, it's still a Ranged Basic Attack, even though you can attack with it as a melee attack. So, for example, you cannot use it to make opportunity attacks, but you can use it to make granted basic attacks (not granted melee basic attacks) from warlord powers for example.

However, it'd be a fine houserule to say that it's a melee basic attack too. In fact, I'd implement it in a game I run. However, not all things work out in a way that makes sense.

 

[mach1.9pants]

This: Are you indicating that Acid Orb used as an RBA SAP and channeled through a dagger with SBC is a melee attack, but somehow no longer a Basic Attack?

There is no such thing as a 'basic attack' on its own, there is a RBA or a MBA. There is not 'basic attack' keyword to transfer when you use your sorcerer power as a melee attack.

Sorcerous Blade Channelling (SBC) "When you use any ranged sorcerer attack bower through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack". That means you can use any ranged power with a range of melee through your dagger. It does NOT mean that if you apply a ranged basic attack power through your dagger it becomes a melee basic attack. It becomes a melee attack only therefore you cannot use it for an OA.
If you wish to do OAs with a sorcerer power use the feat suggested above, The fact there is a feat to allow you to use it as a MBA supports my argument, and it specifies MBA unlike SBC.
The Wiz in our campaign has done this with the same feat -it works on magic missile, makes it a useful spell as he has ring of the ram (push 1) and masters wand (push 1)

However if you want to rule t that way I don't think it is overpowered either, but I don't think it is correct by the RAW.

 

[Piratecat]

Reaper's Touch (Dragon 372), however, does let you turn Acid Orb into a Melee Basic Attack.

Cheers, -- N

Can't go wrong there!

 

[Dan'L]

5 doesn't follow. Just because it's a basic attack with range melee touch doesn't make it a Melee Basic Attack.

Sorcerous Blade Channelling (SBC) "When you use any ranged sorcerer attack power through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack". That means you can use any ranged power with a range of melee through your dagger.

Melee isn't a range, it's one of the four attack types, each of which has a subset of ranges (PHB 56). SBC allows a power with the attack type of "ranged" to be used as attack type "melee." And SBC gives it a range equal to "your melee reach," not "touch;" although they are likely the same, they aren't necessarily.

So, it would be a Basic Attack with attack type Melee, attack range Melee reach. I'm not sure how a basic attack with attack type melee isn't a melee basic attack.

This: Are you indicating that Acid Orb used as an RBA SAP and channeled through a dagger with SBC is a melee attack, but somehow no longer a Basic Attack?

There is no such thing as a 'basic attack' on its own, there is a RBA or a MBA. There is not 'basic attack' keyword to transfer when you use your sorcerer power as a melee attack.

Ah, thank you for clearing that up

There is as much a thing as "basic attack" on its own as there is "sorceror attack" on its own. Both appear in the same portion of the power description that is defined by the "Name and Level" section of "How to Read a Power" (PHB 54) No, it's not a keyword, but it is as much a part of a power description as the keywords are. AFAIK, the only part of the power description that is ignorable is the Flavor Text.

If you wish to do OAs with a sorcerer power use the feat suggested above

Actually, I just want to take SBC for other reasons, but wanted to clear this up before it comes up in a game.

The fact there is a feat to allow you to use it as a MBA supports my argument, and it specifies MBA unlike SBC.

In so far as many feats offer overlapping utility, having one feat that does a thing does not necessarily preclude another feat from doing something similar.

Oddly enough, it's still a Ranged Basic Attack, even though you can attack with it as a melee attack.

So, basically, the attack has to carry the Name "melee basic attack" or be explicitly excepted as such in order to be used as an OA, and being a Basic Attack of attack type Melee isn't good enough to qualify as a Melee Basic Attack? It's a square/rectangle/rhombus thing?

-Dan'L

 

[isd]

A. If you are a Sorcerer [PHB2 page 136] with "Acid Orb" [PHB2 page 138]
B. If you have "Sorcerous Blade Channeling" [PHB2 page 189]
C. If you are using a "Dagger Implement"

This power would read as fallows.
1. Acid Orb
2. Sorcerer Attack 1
3. At-will * Acid, Arcane, Implement
4. Standard Action
5. Ranged 20 or Melee 1
6. Target: one creature
7. Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
8. Hit: 1d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
9. level 21: 2d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
10. Special: This power can be used as a ranged basic attack.

There you have it and nowhere in that power dose it give a "melee basic attack". Although you can now make Melee attacks with this power you can not make basic melee attacks with it.

Although as I have read your posts it has become apparent that you are only looking for someone to agree with you.

Melee isn't a range, it's one of the four attack types, each of which has a subset of ranges (PHB 56)... Ah, thank you for clearing that up... AFAIK, the only part of the power description that is ignorable is the Flavor Text... Actually, I just want to take SBC for other reasons, but wanted to clear this up before it comes up in a game... It's a square/rectangle/rhombus thing?
-Dan'L

I find this sarcastic and rude.

 

[Dan'L]

A. If you are a Sorcerer [PHB2 page 136] with "Acid Orb" [PHB2 page 138]
B. If you have "Sorcerous Blade Channeling" [PHB2 page 189]
C. If you are using a "Dagger Implement"

This power would read as fallows.
1. Acid Orb
2. Sorcerer Attack 1
3. At-will * Acid, Arcane, Implement
4. Standard Action
5. Ranged 20 or Melee 1
6. Target: one creature
7. Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
8. Hit: 1d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
9. level 21: 2d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
10. Special: This power can be used as a ranged basic attack.

There you have it and nowhere in that power dose it give a "melee basic attack". Although you can now make Melee attacks with this power you can not make basic melee attacks with it.

I understand that the power itself does not give a "melee basic attack." But this really only addresses one third of the ABC list you present. My question was does the feat affect the ranged nature of the power to the extent that it affects the "Special" clause (10). I have given my reasoning on this in that previous post, and it encompasses the effects of the feat and the power working in tandem; I am interested in insight that addresses the two together.

Although as I have read your posts it has become apparent that you are only looking for someone to agree with you.

I do not mean to do this; I simply mean to examine the entirety of the thought process and rules in a point/counterpoint fashion. I am seeking to understand, and sometimes it is best to be clear about one's own thought processes so that others may offer appropriate insight.

Originally Posted by Dan'L
(1)Melee isn't a range, it's one of the four attack types, each of which has a subset of ranges (PHB 56)... (2)Ah, thank you for clearing that up... (3)AFAIK, the only part of the power description that is ignorable is the Flavor Text... (4)Actually, I just want to take SBC for other reasons, but wanted to clear this up before it comes up in a game... (5)It's a square/rectangle/rhombus thing?
-Dan'L

I find this sarcastic and rude.

I'm sorry; I really did not intend it to be; I was completely sincere in what I wrote, and I truly apologize if it was rude. In (1) and (3) I was addressing proper terminology and usage as it pertains to these rule issues in an attempt at clarity and understanding. In (2),I was sincerely thanking him for clearing up my confusion, as I had asked him to do earlier and he graciously did. In (4) I was clarifying my intentions at asking the question initially, as it appeared that there was an inference going that I wanted to take SBC explicitly for gaining Acid Orb as an MBA. And, finally, in (5) I was attempting to draw an analogy to help me understand the presented POV, hence the "?" to indicate the doubt that I was unsure if I was understanding it correctly.

I attempt to be thorough in conveying my thought process, so that there may be less confusion and misunderstanding. I realize, however, that the irony has become that this thoroughness itself may be misconstrued as condescending and rude.

So, please accept with all true sincerity my apology for any rudeness, both to you and the previous posters. It is not intended, and I am truly thankful to all who take the time to help me to better understand this question.

-Dan'L