D&D (2024) Sorcery Incarnate - Is it time for unlimited concentration?

[Stalker0]

So I had an idea for Sorcerous Incarnate, and it might be bonkers. But we often talk about how limiting concentration is at higher levels. And this might be an amazingly cool way to differentiate high level sorcs from other classes.

We add this clause to Sorcerous Incarnate:

• Spells cast while under this spell no longer require concentration. Once the spell ends, all concentration spells you had active also immediately end.

So what this does, for up to 1 minute (2 with extended), we can effectively ignore concentration limits. You can go hog wild, maintaining a bunch of effects. However, its countered in that you have a 1 minute max duration, and as soon as incarnate ends, all of those spells immediately die. Further, if incarnate is ever lost (because it is still concentration) or dispelled, again you lose all of those other spells. (its great to have that 8th level concentration spell active....until the 5th level dispel automatically takes it out because it drops incarnate)

It is a nova for sorcs, which is what is kind of implied by the spell's flavor, an explosion of the Sorc's raw innate energy. It would be incredibly cool, and of course allow for tons of combos not currently allowed. But the spell cost would be quiet high, first you can't cast another spell on the opening round (so you lose that first round advantage), and then all of the spells you commit are automatically gone in 1 minute....not to mention the gamble if incarnate is lost int he first place (hehe clearly a good use for extended spell in that case!)

So is this the cool thing that would be both help save the sorc and make this spell seriously cool.... or is it the most broken cheesy thing ever dreamed of in 5e? What do you think?

 

[Yaarel]

The purpose of the Concentration mechanic is to prevent spellcasters from "layering" many powerful spell effects simultaneously.

It is fundamental to balancing full casters with non casters.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

So I had an idea for Sorcerous Incarnate, and it might be bonkers. But we often talk about how limiting concentration is at higher levels. And this might be an amazingly cool way to differentiate high level sorcs from other classes.

We add this clause to Sorcerous Incarnate:

• Spells cast while under this spell no longer require concentration. Once the spell ends, all concentration spells you had active also immediately end.

So what this does, for up to 1 minute (2 with extended), we can effectively ignore concentration limits. You can go hog wild, maintaining a bunch of effects. However, its countered in that you have a 1 minute max duration, and as soon as incarnate ends, all of those spells immediately die. Further, if incarnate is ever lost (because it is still concentration) or dispelled, again you lose all of those other spells. (its great to have that 8th level concentration spell active....until the 5th level dispel automatically takes it out because it drops incarnate)

It is a nova for sorcs, which is what is kind of implied by the spell's flavor, an explosion of the Sorc's raw innate energy. It would be incredibly cool, and of course allow for tons of combos not currently allowed. But the spell cost would be quiet high, first you can't cast another spell on the opening round (so you lose that first round advantage), and then all of the spells you commit are automatically gone in 1 minute....not to mention the gamble if incarnate is lost int he first place (hehe clearly a good use for extended spell in that case!)

So is this the cool thing that would be both help save the sorc and make this spell seriously cool.... or is it the most broken cheesy thing ever dreamed of in 5e? What do you think?

My request for you is... break it. Be the devil's advocate and show us what it can do if the Sorcerer could have 4+ concentration spells up at the same time for 2 minutes. You'll have your answer.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think it is certainly interesting. I like the basic chassis of the new sorcerer. I mostly think that the sorcerer specific spells are too weak except for the fairly bonkers wish.
I think ignoring concentration limits would be extremely powerful, however, if it itself did not use a concentration slot and allowed metamagic to be applied to another concentration spell it would be pretty good.

 

[Vael]

Interesting.

I'd long considered a way for Sorcerers to bypass concentration (outside of Twin Spell), and to give them another way to differentiate themselves from Wizards. My thought was to have a new Metamagic ... Persistent Spell, which removes Concentration on spells the Sorcerer casts upon themselves. I figured a Sorcerer's body is different, so buff spells they cast upon themselves should be able to take advantage of that.

My initial impression is that if one were to do this to Sorcery Incarnate, that would justify taking it up to 6th level, so it's not repeatable.

 

[mellored]

My request for you is... break it. Be the devil's advocate and show us what it can do if the Sorcerer could have 4+ concentration spells up at the same time for 2 minutes. You'll have your answer.

It's also possible to limit it to 2 or 3 concentration spells. If somehow 4+ breaks it.

 

[Garthanos]

The purpose of the Concentration mechanic is to prevent spellcasters from "layering" many powerful spell effects simultaneously.

It is fundamental to balancing full casters with non casters.

Maintaining a spell taking concentration and that causing loss of other ability like losing the ability to swiftly react (ie you are focusing why can you cast a shield? or absorb elements? or silvery barbs?) would be an effort to actually make concentration a limit. As it stands its like having an extra action or many depending on which spell you concentrate on... for example conjured animals.

 

[Krachek]

Maintaining a spell taking concentration and that causing loss of other ability like losing the ability to swiftly react (ie you are focusing why can you cast a shield? or absorb elements? or silvery barbs?) would be an effort to actually make concentration a limit. As it stands its like having an extra action or many depending on which spell you concentrate on... for example conjured animals.

That could be cool.
First additional spell you concentrate makes you unable to move and use reaction.
Second and other additional spell makes you restrained.

 

[Yaarel]

Maintaining a spell taking concentration and that causing loss of other ability like losing the ability to swiftly react (ie you are focusing why can you cast a shield? or absorb elements? or silvery barbs?) would be an effort to actually make concentration a limit. As it stands its like having an extra action or many depending on which spell you concentrate on... for example conjured animals.

Personally, I would like the designers to finetune which spells actually deserve Concentration. Some spells are nonproblematic, dont need to worry about layering, yet require Concentration. You mention Shield − this is a powerful slot 1 spell even at the highest levels. Maybe it is an example of a spell that lacks Concentration but should have it?

Your main point about the Concentration mechanic being narratively awkward can be true at times. But again, its purpose is mechanical, to prevent spell layering. Its narrative explanation is secondary.

Maybe in line with your suggestion about "swiftly react", it is possible to rethink the Concentration mechanic. As you say, maybe "Concentration" means one must spend the Reaction (or the Bonus Action) each round the spell duration remains in effect − in addition to the standard Action to cast it. This mechanic would actualize the narrative that the caster is making a special effort to maintain a spell. And since there is only one Reaction (or one Bonus Action), the Concentration spells that would require it would compete for it, thus achieving the design goal of preventing spell layering.

 

[Yaarel]

Note, designers have experimented with increasing the number of Reactions per round. Two examples in years earlier UA articles show the effort but never became official.

The "Tunnel Fighter" from the Underdark UA spent a Bonus Action to enter a "stance" that can make Op Attacks without spending the Reaction.

The "Knight" from the Fighter UA includes a complicated feature that says, "You can make this special attack even if you have already expended your reaction this round, but not if you have already used your reaction this turn."

In any case, the designers are experimenting with controlled increases of more than one Reaction.



Note also. Technically, when one takes ones turn, one could spend an unspent Reaction before taking the turn, then take the turn, and then spend the next Reaction. Effectively, this is virtually taking two Reactions during one turn.

If the Concentration mechanic required spending the Reaction, this tactic could in some rounds be used to cast two spells that require a Reaction. But once an enduring Concentration effect took place, it would continue to occupy any future Reactions.