D&D General Souls and Spirits - are they necessary in order to exist?

Celebrim

Legend
To my mind, if a world exists in which complete physical transformation of the brain is possible via magic (wild shape, polymorph, etc.), then it doesn't make sense that memories, personality, and identity are encoded only physically within the brain.

Most aspects of fantasy, particularly high fantasy, don't work with a purely materialistic universe like our own. Most fantasy generally requires that identity is housed in a metaphysical container (soul, spirit, etc.).

Agreed. It's not possible to have a universe where you say, "This universe is just like our universe and has all the same physics and chemistry but also magic as described exists." The fantastic elements are incompatible with observed physical law. In my long experience with this question, it's always worse to assume that "physics is just like the real universe" and reason from that than it is to reason from "this magical stuff exists so the underlying physics must provide for it". The former leads to table arguments and rulings that create severe contradiction with what the rules of the game and the setting information describes. It also tends to lead to incoherent settings - "Why does a setting with a ten thousand year written history not develop higher forms of technology over time if their physics are identical to our own? Why don't we have machine guns and internal combustion engines and computers by now? Is everyone just stupid?"
 

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Edition-agnostic question here, and answers based on different editions might be of interest.

First, the background:

Some years ago in my current campaign one of the PCs - a Human Fighter - suffered a mishap where pulling a card from a modified Deck of Many Things stripped away his soul but otherwise left him hale and hearty. He ran for a few in-game years like this (and, somewhat incredibly for both the player and the game, stayed alive the whole time) while slowly coming to realize his odd condition, then eventually - with some very high-powered help - he got a soul stuffed into him that nobody else was using (it was extracted from the soul gem found in Ghost Tower of Inverness).

The ramifications of this were both good and bad. The good: he became completely invisible to most undead, who see only the soul or spirit of the living. He also became immune to a few (quite rare) effects that specifically target the spirit. The bad: if he died he was done. No revival in any manner, no speak with dead, nothing.

And so, my question to you all:

Would you allow a PC to lose its soul or spirit like this and yet still remain alive and playable?

If no, why?

If yes, what would you have as the ramifications of having no soul?
Personally my take would be similar to what you're describing.

I don't really like takes which involve people losing empathy or humanity if they lose their souls, because, it's very clear in our own scientific world that, if there are souls, they're not needed to explain empathy, humanity, decent or the like. Personality seems to mostly a fusion of memories/experiences, how well the brain is functioning, and the endocrine system. You don't need to force/jam in a soul to try and explain stuff that's already well-explained.

Thus someone who lost their soul shouldn't change in personality or the like from the mere loss - if they didn't know they'd lost it they shouldn't change at all. If they did change it would be likely from the trauma of finding out, and perhaps subconsciously acting into stereotypes of how they thought a "soulless" person would behave.

I see the soul, unless specified otherwise by the setting, as more of a "restore point" or "archive" of a person's mind and body - this works pretty well with most fantasy cosmology and magic systems.
This was my rationale for letting the soul-less character survive: his physical mind - i.e. his brain - kept his memories and personality going to the point where an observer couldn't tell the difference between his previous and new versions.
Yeah and his endocrine system - that's a big part of who we are too (something often overlooked in sci-fi stuff about body-hopping and the like). But I agree. Unless you jam the soul in and have it start replacing the role of parts of the brain and endocrine system, there's no reason someone without a soul should be "passionless" or "having no empathy" or "no remorse" or the like.

I'd also say I personally object to that, because the same negative things people often like to assign to characters without a soul are also assigned to atheists (and sometimes even agnostics!) by various religious leaders and politicians (and their followers) in the real world, and can have real negative consequences for how people who are atheists or the like think and feel about themselves. We can't discuss religion/politics in detail, but I wanted to bring this up primarily as a diversity issue - I don't think it's great to ape anti-atheist stereotyping as "what it's like when you have no soul". Obviously you're doing the opposite of that, thankfully!
 

the Jester

Legend
Magic Jar was one of those rare spirit-targeting effects I was thinking of. In the as-written game there's not many others; we have a very nasty high-level homebrew spell (and Mind-Flayer psionic effect) called Spirit Blast, which targets the spirit of a single creature and, on a failed save, both kills the creature and disintegrates its spirit.
I have several others in mind- astral spell, a homebrewed one called spirit travel that is like Dr Strange's astral projection when he just cruises around New York or whatever, maybe the life drain ability of some undead, the old trap the soul, soul bind, etc.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Short answer: Nope. Souls and Spirits are different things in my setting (although the difference is meaningless for most purposes), but they're the gasoline in the engine. Without one, your character is just a husk. This has been my ruling for decades, but 5E aligns with it in the first sentence of the Magic Jar spell.
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component.
I have various things in my setting that attack souls and spirits, and if the soul is removed or destroyed, the character gets a condition that is like unconscious, but in which the PC's brain continues to function and record information.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I am literally writing a setting in which souls are a limited and valuable resource. Where people can easily lose their entire soul, or lose it piece by piece until nothing is left. But also where that soul can be healed over time or through care.

And where souls can be generated by love and adoration. Which is why your pets all have souls even if wild animals don't tend to.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
To my mind, if a world exists in which complete physical transformation of the brain is possible via magic (wild shape, polymorph, etc.), then it doesn't make sense that memories, personality, and identity are encoded only physically within the brain.

Well, on the other hand, in the fantasy world, is the brain even the relevant organ? Or maybe its absolute physical size has little to do with its function. In past ages folk used to ascribe all sorts of functions to bodily tissues. In our world, they were often incorrect, but in the fantasy world, maybe things work differently. Like, sure you have a liver, but it isn't about processing poisons in the body - it is the seat of anger, and so on.

Most fantasy generally requires that identity is housed in a metaphysical container (soul, spirit, etc.).

I think most fantasy does not require us to even consider "housing" identity, as the question only comes up rarely.
 
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Well, on the other hand, in the fantasy world, is the brain even the relevant organ?
Yeah this is the issue when you have the soul replace functions of the brain and endocrine system. What are those things even doing?

With fully-considered fantasy settings, maybe they do have specific functions different from the real world, like you suggest, but the issue is that approximately 90%+ of fantasy settings aren't like that, and instead are a sort weird deal with physical reality as we know it exists, and things all work the way you'd expect, and them magic is just a force that's available on top of that. D&D has roots in that kind of approach - the science-fantasy of Vance rather than purer fantasy.

I think most fantasy does not require us to even consider "housing" identity, as the question only comes up rarely.
This is exactly right - most fantasy doesn't even engage with this on any real level.

Short answer: Nope. Souls and Spirits are different things in my setting (although the difference is meaningless for most purposes), but they're the gasoline in the engine. Without one, your character is just a husk. This has been my ruling for decades, but 5E aligns with it in the first sentence of the Magic Jar spell. I have various things in my setting that attack souls and spirits, and if the soul is removed or destroyed, the character gets a condition that is like unconscious, but in which the PC's brain continues to function and record information.
The Magic Jar approach is a reasonable compromise that keeps things simple. If you just cease all voluntary function in a very simple way when your soul is removed it doesn't really raise the same tricky questions that that more elaborate stuff like losing empathy or remorse does, and it doesn't link to hateful real-world ideology (which is a good thing to avoid linking to. Having the soul as just an indefinable "necessary to make you go" thing is pretty straightforward and works well with D&D.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I think losing ones soul ought to be a nasty experience. I mean, Liches commit evils to give theirs up for power and longevity. I dont necessarily think losing one's soul should be an automatic evil shift, but I prefer if there is some noticeable difference. I would imagine it as an incredible longing for a return of one's soul. Food isnt fulfilling, music isnt pleasing, touch isnt as sensitive, but the distant memories of all those pleasures remain. A constant reminder of what one once was and all they have lost.
If yes, what would you have as the ramifications of having no soul?
Not entirely sure. Despite my views above, id likely not place any role play restrictions. Id likely do some type of bonus/penalty to certain magic effects leaning towards the penalty part so folks dont go around trying to lose souls of their PCs for the bonuses.
 

jgsugden

Legend
...The Magic Jar approach is a reasonable compromise that keeps things simple. If you just cease all voluntary function in a very simple way when your soul is removed it doesn't really raise the same tricky questions that that more elaborate stuff like losing empathy or remorse does, and it doesn't link to hateful real-world ideology (which is a good thing to avoid linking to. Having the soul as just an indefinable "necessary to make you go" thing is pretty straightforward and works well with D&D.
I do see it a bit differently than you explain it. When your soul leaves the body, you left the body. The character goes with the soul, not the meat. The body is a prosthetic for the soul to use. The Magic Jar spell seems to treat the soul similarly with how it describes the soul and you interchangeably.
If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die.
I don't recall how I came to hold my views on this, but it is something that came up a lot in early gaming for my groups and I've held the line on it since the 1980s. It was probably use to the Magic Jar AD&D spell or the Deck of Many Things.
 


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