D&D 3E/3.5 Spacing and creatures in D&D 3.5

[Kheti sa-Menik]

A question I don't really know the answer to..something vague I've wondered about.
In 3.5, a Med creature's fighting space is 5' or one square on a standard battle grid.
But a Med creature doesn't actually take up 5 ft and one can assume that two Med creatures in a noncombat situation could fit into one 5' space, like sitting on a small boat or on a couch.
I've read this somewhere, not sure where, but it makes sense.

Say you've got a five foot/1 square wide boat, 15' or three squares long.
You're got six Med size PCs onboard, two to each square. They're riding along, row row rowing their boat. Suddenly they are attacked and thrust into "combat mode." Now you have two Med characters each sharing a single five foot square. Is this possible to even fight?

I know that if a Med PC is prone in a five ft square, that another Med PC can occupy in an upright position that same square...that is correct?

Did a misread a ruling? Is there rules clarification on these issues?

Thanks!

 

[skelso]

The short answer is "No, PCs may not occupy the same square during combat." (DMG, p. 29, under Mixing It Up.) Presumably, in the example you list if the six PCs are suddenly attacked, 3 of them would need to jump out so the other 3 can attack.

This sort of situation comes up in my campaign more than one would think. I use the following house rule:
PCs occupying the same space during combat are "Squeezed" and take the standard -4 to Attacks and AC for being squeezed. (DMG, p. 29, under Squeezing Through.)

I hope this helps.

 

[frankthedm]

Did a misread a ruling? Is there rules clarification on these issues?

Common sense is the only thing needed to let you know more than one human body fits into a 5' square.


But if you need text to bash someone upside the head with...

Moving Around In Squares
In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space. The rules for movement are important for combat, but outside combat they can impose unnecessary hindrances on character activities.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingAroundInSquares

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, you are right.

Then how to handle it?

If I were a DM, I will use squeezing rule. Basically, each PCs are squeezing in a space which is as half as they usually occupy. So I will give them the same penalties until half of the PCs jump out or fly up from the boat.

 

[irdeggman]

Say you've got a five foot/1 square wide boat, 15' or three squares long.
You're got six Med size PCs onboard, two to each square. They're riding along, row row rowing their boat. Suddenly they are attacked and thrust into "combat mode." Now you have two Med characters each sharing a single five foot square. Is this possible to even fight?

Where did you get those dimensions for a boat in D&D?

I think that is the crux of the problem

For example

SRD:

Rowboat: This 8- to 12-foot-long boat holds two or three Medium passengers. It moves about 1-1/2 miles per hour.

It is 8 x 12 and can hold 2 or 3 medium sized creature.

Stormwrack pg 95+ has more detailed information for vesels.

Pretty much all of them correspond to the 1 person per 5 ft square parameter.

 

[Elethiomel]

It is 8 x 12 and can hold 2 or 3 medium sized creature.

No. No, it's not. It's 8 to 12 feet long, nothing is said about its width.

 

[irdeggman]

No. No, it's not. It's 8 to 12 feet long, nothing is said about its width.

You are correct sir. The assumption would then be it is 8-12 feet long and 5 ft wide.

Stormwrack pg 102

rowboat 10 ft x 5 ft. Compliment 4 watch 1

Compliment is the total number of small or medium humanoids that can normally be carried on board as crew and passengers. The watch requirement is the minimum number of of people necessary to control the ship without penalty.

Stromwrack pg 102
Raft 15 ft x 10 ft compliment 8, watch 1 plus 2 rowers

 

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Actually that is the boat I was thinking of, although I made it one square longer to 15'/3 squares.

The squeezing rule sounds very natural. I was also thinking that one PC may be "soft cover" for the other. Then you get the water creature outside the boat attacking PC 1 but may end up hitting PC 2 who is sharing the same 5' square with PC 1.

I was thinking maybe there had been an official ruling I missed or how other folks handled it. Please keep the discussion going.

 

[irdeggman]

Actually that is the boat I was thinking of, although I made it one square longer to 15'/3 squares.

The squeezing rule sounds very natural. I was also thinking that one PC may be "soft cover" for the other. Then you get the water creature outside the boat attacking PC 1 but may end up hitting PC 2 who is sharing the same 5' square with PC 1.

I was thinking maybe there had been an official ruling I missed or how other folks handled it. Please keep the discussion going.

Well here is the way to look at it.

If you did not tell the PCs they would be in a tight fit (which is pretty much what the 1 character per space is - as in you can't end your turn in an occupied space rule) without "squeezing" then you have placed them at an unknown disadvantage and I would probably rule that this one time those rules do not apply (DM's mistake). That is I would not penalize players for my error as a DM.

The offical rule is that you can't end your turn in an occupied space.

Moving through a Square

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)

Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Overrun: During your movement you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Tumble skill).

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities.

Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I was thinking maybe there had been an official ruling I missed or how other folks handled it. Please keep the discussion going.

No you haven't missed anything. Just use the squeezing rules, perhaps slicing up the squares into 2½ft x 5ft rectangles so you know where everyone is. If you don't mind added calculations, have people with ranks in profession (sailor) make a check vs. DC 15 every round (beginning of turn) to negate half the squeezing penalty, maybe DC 25 for the whole penalty.

Also, don't forget to consider things like, maybe, balance checks.