Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Actually, it doesn't, the "If the dragon form is larger" bit is completely ass-backwards.

It should be:

Abilities: A weredragon's mental ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11 or +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, whichever is higher.

When it assumes dragon form, a weredragon's physical ability scores also improve. When in its default size, the base adjustments are equal to the base dragon's wyrmling ability scores –10 or –11. If the ability improvement would be less than +8 Strength and +2 Constitution, the weredragon gains those adjustments instead. If the weredragon assumes a dragon form smaller than its default size, the hybrid form's Strength and natural armor bonus are reduced according to the Table: Changes to Statistics by Size in Dragon & Hybrid Form. A weredragon in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.​

Agree about "showing all the work" for the examples by including the base creature form and the mental abilities. So we're talking:

Example One: A wyrmling bronze dragon is a Small dragon with Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14 and +5 natural armor bonus; applying –10 or –11 comes to ability improvements of Str +8, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4 for a wyrmling bronze weredragon (note its Strength adjustment uses the true drakanathrope minimum of +8, not the Str +2 derived from Str 13 minus 10 or 11). A dwarf warrior is a Medium humanoid with Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6. Therefore, in humanoid form a wyrmling bronze weredragon dwarf has Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10 and NA +2. In default dragon form, the dwarf weredragon is a Medium creature with Str 21, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10 and NA +5. If its dragon or hybrid form reduces in size to Small it has Str 17, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10.

Example Two: A wyrmling red dragon is a Medium dragon with Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10 and +6 natural armor bonus; applying –10 or –11 and a weredragon's minimum ability improvements gives it Str +8, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 for a wyrmling red weredragon (note that only its Constitution adjustment is better than the true drakanathrope minimum of +2). A fire giant is a Large giant with Str 31, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11 and +8 natural armor. Therefore, in giant form a wyrmling red weredragon fire giant has Str 31, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 13 and NA +10. In default dragon form the fire giant weredragon is a Large creature with Str 38, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 13 and NA +14. If its dragon or hybrid form reduces in size to Medium it has Str 30, Dex 9, Con 23 and NA +12.​

Writing the above, I realized we'd better update the Armor Class section as well.

How about:

Armor Class: Weredragons have their natural bonus increase by +2 in humanoid or giant form. In dragon form, a weredragon in its default size has a natural armor bonus equal to the base dragon's natural armor plus the base creature's natural armor or a +5 natural armor bonus, whichever is higher. In hybrid form, a weredragon's natural armor bonus is equal to that of its base creature form or dragon form, whichever is better.​

Updated the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

That will all be fine.

I honestly can't remember if we discussed skills and feats, but the blue text looks good.

Let's remove some question marks from the magenta text:

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-7).
Challenge Rating: ??.
Treasure: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Alignment: Same as the base dragon.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: ??

I removed age category from advancement, since we're allowing any age category with LA in the creation instructions and didn't want to allow others.

 

[Cleon]

That will all be fine.

I honestly can't remember if we discussed skills and feats, but the blue text looks good.

I think I just left that bit in from the Weredrake, but to be honest the first draft was so long ago I'm not sure.

Let's remove some question marks from the magenta text:

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-7).
Challenge Rating: ??.
Treasure: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Alignment: Same as the base dragon.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: ??

I removed age category from advancement, since we're allowing any age category with LA in the creation instructions and didn't want to allow others.

Speaking of the Weredrake, I'd crib some bits from that for the above.

Regarding the Advancement, my idea was to allow Dragon Advancement within the LA limits. If a weredragon can have dragon age category X when built from scratch, a wyrmling Weredragon should be able to advance to age X too.

How's this:

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Organization: Same as base dragon or solitary.
Challenge Rating: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base dragon: 1 HD or ???.
Treasure: Same as either the base creature or base dragon.
Alignment: Same as the base dragon.
Advancement: By character class or same as the base dragon; the weredragon can only advance to base dragon age categories with a Level Adjustment.
Level Adjustment: —​

We'll need to figure some numbers for the CR adjustment by base dragon Hit Dice.

How about we put in the Weredrake's "1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6" as a placeholder and then tweak the adjustments as feels appropriate once we do the Sample Creatures?

 

[freyar]

That approach to CR is fine.

The reason I didn't include dragon HD advancement is that I didn't think it would match up with creation of the weredragon at the higher age category to start with. But now I look and notice that we don't explain the HD except for wyrmling base dragons. Shall we work that out now? Then we can make things consistent (including ability scores with advancement).

 

[Cleon]

That approach to CR is fine.

Updated the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

The reason I didn't include dragon HD advancement is that I didn't think it would match up with creation of the weredragon at the higher age category to start with. But now I look and notice that we don't explain the HD except for wyrmling base dragons. Shall we work that out now? Then we can make things consistent (including ability scores with advancement).

We've still got a lot of magenta magenta text to sort out.

We started discussing Hit Dice back in June but got sidetracked. That's June 2020.

Gods, we've been working on this one for a long time. That's four years ago!

The current rough draft still has the original model based on the Wyrmling base dragon, but it'd be simpler to switch to the standard lycanthrope approach of "add the base dragon & base creature together" like the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope).

Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as base creature plus those of the base dragon.

To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the weredragon has in each form.
​

That would probably be fine, although we won't know for sure until we do the sample weredragons.

 

[freyar]

Well, to be fair, we did work out the weredrakes in those 4 years. But, yeah, these have been complicated!

I'd be ok with the standard approach. I guess we could allow dragon HD advancement as long as it works out the same! But I guess we need to agree on the rest of the magenta text before getting to the sample critters. To that end, Speed and BAB/Grapple text look ok. I think what you have with Attacks looks fine too, including the part in brackets. Agreed?

 

[Cleon]

Well, to be fair, we did work out the weredrakes in those 4 years. But, yeah, these have been complicated!

I'd be ok with the standard approach. I guess we could allow dragon HD advancement as long as it works out the same! But I guess we need to agree on the rest of the magenta text before getting to the sample critters. To that end, Speed and BAB/Grapple text look ok. I think what you have with Attacks looks fine too, including the part in brackets. Agreed?

So we're talking about replacing that entire section with:

Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as base creature plus those of the base dragon.

To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the weredragon has in each form.

Speed: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. Hybrids use the base creature's speed and have a fly speed equal to one-half the base dragon's flight speed (if any) with a maneuverability one step worse than the base dragon's (minimum clumsy). If the base creature already has a fly speed, the hybrid form uses whichever flying speed and flight maneverability is better.

Armor Class: Weredragons have their natural armor bonus increase by +2 in humanoid or giant form. In dragon form, a weredragon in its default size has a natural armor bonus equal to the base dragon's natural armor plus the base creature's natural armor or a +5 natural armor bonus, whichever is higher. In hybrid form, a weredragon's natural armor bonus is equal to that of its base creature form or dragon form, whichever is better.

Base Attack/Grapple: Add the base attack bonus for the base creature to the base attack bonus of the base dragon's Dragon Hit Dice. The weredragon's grapple bonus uses its attack bonus and modifiers for Strength and size depending on the weredragon's form.

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. If the base dragon has wings or tail slap attacks the weredragon gains those natural weapons in hybrid form.​

That works for me.

Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

OK, I think this is good.

Can we just let damage be same as base creature or base dragon?

I mostly like the magenta text for the special attacks, except (1) I'm not quite sure what the "[dragon's attack]" means in the 2nd paragraph and (2) am not sold on the hybrid form getting a crush attack. A humanoid-ish hybrid might be big enough but just doesn't feel right rolling around on its victims.

We may also want to restrict some special attacks to when the dragon or hybrid form is large enough.

 

[Cleon]

OK, I think this is good.

Can we just let damage be same as base creature or base dragon?

So its claws and bites do the same damage in both hybrid and dragon form using the Dragon Space/Reach, Attacks, and Damage table?

That'd be 1d8 bite and 1d6 claws for a Medium weredragon, which is a step nastier than the claws and bite of a standard lycanthrope (1d6 bite & 1d4 claws for Medium).

The FR7 - Hall of Heroes does 1d6 damage with those three attacks, making its bite a LOT less deadly than a true dragon.

If we wanted to represent that, we could just have its bite do the same damage as its claws when in hybrid form.

Also, in dragon form its bite attack has increased reach (e.g. 10 ft. for Large). I'm thinking it might have regular reach in hybrid form as well as claw level damage.

I mostly like the magenta text for the special attacks, except (1) I'm not quite sure what the "[dragon's attack]" means in the 2nd paragraph

It'll have a specific reference to a natural weapon-tied special attack of a true dragon, I just hadn't decided on one I liked yet. None of the SRD true dragons have non-standard special natural weapon attacks, so I was thinking we'd use one from the Creature Catalog.

I did wonder about using the Constrict attack of a Young or older Tlalocoatl, but reading the CC entry more closely that'd also require us to mention the Multiple Heads SA since only its Jaguar head has a bite attack with Improved Grab.

Come to think of it, there must be other true dragons with Improved Grab. It'd be easier just combing through them to pick one…

…Here's one!

How about " If the base dragon has a special attack tied to another natural weapon, such as the improved grab of an Ichthyodrake's bite attack or the crush attack of a Huge true dragon"

and (2) am not sold on the hybrid form getting a crush attack. A humanoid-ish hybrid might be big enough but just doesn't feel right rolling around on its victims.

Letting them keep Crush works for me. If a toddler can roll around on the floor, I'd think an adventurer would be able to figure it out!

Besides, Crush is comparatively ineffective and honestly I can't remember ever bothering to have a dragon use it. To affect Medium sized opponents the dragon has to be Gargantuan or Colossal in size and there are so many more effective things a Gargantuan true dragon can use its round for.

Indeed, I suspect a big enough Giant Weredragon might find Crush more useful than a true dragon does, since they probably won't have the age categories for the more effective options.

We may also want to restrict some special attacks to when the dragon or hybrid form is large enough.

Definitely.

I'm most concerned about when and whether the hybrid form gets a Wings attack. The original 2E AD&D monster didn't have wing spur attacks like a 2E True Dragon, nor does the 3E Half-Dragon we're cribbing some of our stats from, but a 3E true dragon gains wing attacks at Medium size.

If we're giving the Hybrid Form natural weapon-tied special attacks then presumably we're giving it other dragon natural weapons like tail slap and tail sweep too, which we'll need to decide if and how they'll be adjusted.

For example, the hybrid form has a slower fly speed so maybe its wings are weaker so are treated as a size category smaller (i.e. so it starts getting wings attacks at size Large with 1d4 damage).