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Speeding Up Combat #2 - Blame the Players!
- Thread starter ArcaneSpringboard
- Start date
surfarcher
First Post
Interesting...
I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written, but I think you are on the right track. I'd say your number 1 is the most important, followed closely by 2 and 3.
In my game we keep the multiple to-hit rolls, we just roll them all at the same time.
And rather than ditch the damage die we do what the book says and roll one damage die and apply it to all hits. But we roll the damage die with the to-hit die, which speeds things up more than you'd think.
For my take on it check out the Combat Notes page on my campaign portal.
As I've mentioned elsewhere we also use reward tokens to encourage players to finish their turn in under 2 minutes. You can see all the details at the Rewards page on my campaign portal. But basically the reward is a +1 chip they can apply to any roll and which they can upgrade to +2 or +3. The +3 is also an "upgrade any configrmed hit to a critical". This speeds up combat in a number of ways. Besides positively reinforcing players who play smoothly and quickly it increases the number of hits and the party damage output. Especially when the players get the hang of using them.
Finally I'd point out that it isn't really all the player's fault (although I understand you aren't really serious about that). The DM does have his part to play in the area of grind. I'd encourage any DM to read Stalker0’s Guide to Anti-grind and at least try what he explains, it really does make a difference.
I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written, but I think you are on the right track. I'd say your number 1 is the most important, followed closely by 2 and 3.
In my game we keep the multiple to-hit rolls, we just roll them all at the same time.
And rather than ditch the damage die we do what the book says and roll one damage die and apply it to all hits. But we roll the damage die with the to-hit die, which speeds things up more than you'd think.
For my take on it check out the Combat Notes page on my campaign portal.
As I've mentioned elsewhere we also use reward tokens to encourage players to finish their turn in under 2 minutes. You can see all the details at the Rewards page on my campaign portal. But basically the reward is a +1 chip they can apply to any roll and which they can upgrade to +2 or +3. The +3 is also an "upgrade any configrmed hit to a critical". This speeds up combat in a number of ways. Besides positively reinforcing players who play smoothly and quickly it increases the number of hits and the party damage output. Especially when the players get the hang of using them.
Finally I'd point out that it isn't really all the player's fault (although I understand you aren't really serious about that). The DM does have his part to play in the area of grind. I'd encourage any DM to read Stalker0’s Guide to Anti-grind and at least try what he explains, it really does make a difference.
I find the biggest problems with a slow-feeling combat is the players who
a) do not know what they're going to do and
b) the players who can't recall their numbers or what to roll
When the players know who is up next and they still aren't ready, I give them some tough love and count down from 6 when it's clear they haven't been following along. If they haven't chosen by then, I skip their turn.
Yeah, the round changes from turn to turn, and some players (leaders, mostly) frequently have their plans change at the last second before they go and I give them leeway when that's the case; but most of the time that's not the case, so they should be ready when I call their initiative.
a) do not know what they're going to do and
b) the players who can't recall their numbers or what to roll
When the players know who is up next and they still aren't ready, I give them some tough love and count down from 6 when it's clear they haven't been following along. If they haven't chosen by then, I skip their turn.
Yeah, the round changes from turn to turn, and some players (leaders, mostly) frequently have their plans change at the last second before they go and I give them leeway when that's the case; but most of the time that's not the case, so they should be ready when I call their initiative.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
I realize that grind is a serious issue, and I respect efforts to deal with it, but I would rather have a combat drag on longer than necessary than have the DM poking me with a stick and yelling "faster faster" when i'm trying to think.
If I [a hypothetical "I"] appear slow to decide, it might be that a) I'm just slow -- it's how I am, b) there are a lot more options and considerations than you realize, c) I am trying to figure out what my character would do, or d) I am one of those people who freeze up when everyone glares at them and taps their feet in annoyance.
Too many of the "solutions" suggested amount to punishment. Our society already has too many sticks and not enough carrots -- we don't need to import sticks into what is supposed to be a game.
If I [a hypothetical "I"] appear slow to decide, it might be that a) I'm just slow -- it's how I am, b) there are a lot more options and considerations than you realize, c) I am trying to figure out what my character would do, or d) I am one of those people who freeze up when everyone glares at them and taps their feet in annoyance.
Too many of the "solutions" suggested amount to punishment. Our society already has too many sticks and not enough carrots -- we don't need to import sticks into what is supposed to be a game.
Since I ordinarily find myself in alignment with Prestidigitalis, I have to review my ways. I note, too, that no carrot was offered after dismissing the stick.
I get to this point when I've already exhausted the "these people are next" and requested that they be ready when their turn arrives. I have also reviewed multiple times where on the power cards the important numbers can be... and what "Strength vs. AC" means. Given some people are audio and others visual learners, I've tried drawing diagrams and also describing the power cards in a narrative.
I'm a player and so I know how plans can change. I've watched players as a game master over most of the last 30 years and I know their plans can change. The plans change for my monsters... but I rarely take the 10-minute turns I watch some players habitually take unless prodded.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
This is a strong compliment, and I appreciate it. I didn't mean to call out any specific person, and certainly not you.
What I'm really saying is, let's be humanistic about this. If a player's slowness irritates you and nothing seems to help them speed up, you really have two choices: accept how they are, or oust them from the group. If you are the DM, you have a third choice -- reduce grind through some other means so that the slow play has less of a multiplier effect. But making their lives miserable by badgering them or making them skip their turn -- that's just petty.
...I hesitate to say this, but I'm going to take a chance: It's possible that part of the reason that fewer girls and women play D&D is because of the punitive approaches I refer to. Why play a game if you are just going to be harassed?
Here's a thought: What about cutting back on kibbitzing?
I've noticed that a lot of the reason my players take a long time to go is that they spend ages hashing out tactics. Has anyone tried instituting a rule where only the player whose turn it is* gets to talk? How did it work? Seems like this might speed up play, and the impact would fall not on the novice player but the know-it-all veteran. (Being myself a know-it-all veteran, I'd probably have to bite my tongue a lot...)
[size=-2]*Exceptions for people taking immediate actions or OAs, obviously. And of course the DM would have to be able to answer rules questions if the active player was unsure.[/size]
I've noticed that a lot of the reason my players take a long time to go is that they spend ages hashing out tactics. Has anyone tried instituting a rule where only the player whose turn it is* gets to talk? How did it work? Seems like this might speed up play, and the impact would fall not on the novice player but the know-it-all veteran. (Being myself a know-it-all veteran, I'd probably have to bite my tongue a lot...)
[size=-2]*Exceptions for people taking immediate actions or OAs, obviously. And of course the DM would have to be able to answer rules questions if the active player was unsure.[/size]
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surfarcher
First Post
Yeah I considered forced delays... But I really don't like punishing my players.
There are so many reasons why "punishment" is a really negative thing. What if it's not their fault? Is it good to "single out" one or two players who are slower just due to their basic nature? Sometimes things get really tactical and they are spending the AP and unloading as much as they can - that shouldn't be punished. Etc.
I much prefer positive reinforcement. So when the idea of rewarding fast play came up I had to try it first. It's working very well so far.
I'm not saying get one of those 60 second sand timers and auto-delay them the moment the last grain falls. There are considerations to be made, not a hard and fast rule.
When it's a tense situation and EVERY other player at the table is hanging on each mumbled word as the player ruminates the grave implications of each of their options.... that's great! They can take 10 minutes for all I care, because the game won't FEEL slow to anyone.
But when everyone else is just quietly thinking to themselves "Dude! Twin Strike! The bloodied guy! You have a +11 to hit! Just SAY IT and DROP THE DICE!" then it's my responsibility as the DM to those other players to keep the game moving, to make sure THEY don't feel that the game is slow.
I think I've only ever invoked the "you delay" rule once. Usually, the threat is enough.
EDIT: huh, noscript does funny things to the editor...
When it's a tense situation and EVERY other player at the table is hanging on each mumbled word as the player ruminates the grave implications of each of their options.... that's great! They can take 10 minutes for all I care, because the game won't FEEL slow to anyone.
But when everyone else is just quietly thinking to themselves "Dude! Twin Strike! The bloodied guy! You have a +11 to hit! Just SAY IT and DROP THE DICE!" then it's my responsibility as the DM to those other players to keep the game moving, to make sure THEY don't feel that the game is slow.
I think I've only ever invoked the "you delay" rule once. Usually, the threat is enough.
EDIT: huh, noscript does funny things to the editor...
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