Thanks for all of the comments.
Infiniti2000 said:
One comment I need to make is that at such high levels, it is very difficult to figure out what is broken. It could be so many things. It's very hard to distinguish one broken spell from other or if they're both just extremely powerful. In the example you presented, I would not even have thought twice about sublime revelry and instead thought that divine metamagic was broken (and I think it is -- I don't think you should allowed metamagicking spells above the highest level you can cast). If not that, then maybe the encounter occurred as expected. After all, the fighters could have apparently just waded into battle hand-to-hand with nary a scratch.
About the dragon -- a lot of people play dragons 'wrong' (or rather, not to their full potential). It happens, don't worry about it. This is a side issue, so please excuse the digression, but I feel this happens because those same DMs don't like using dragons at lower levels. They feel (and I hear this from them) that dragons should be powerful and not so common at lower levels. Well, what that breeds is a total infamiliarity with dragons at any level. Now, this might not be you, or it might be, who knows. Unless you want to get into it, and can handle criticism, then don't worry about it.
Playing a bunch of high level characters is a problem. Let me explain the current encounter some. They are facing off against around 105 9th level barbarians and their leaders. Thre are 12 clerics of 10th level, one high level druid, and a tough, BBG around CR22. Some of the barbarians have flying mounts (chimeras) and there are four giant monks of 6th level. The group is assaulting a hill top where the bad guys are camped. I thought that this would be a tough fight, but in 8 rounds, they've decimated the barbarians and the bulk of the captains, taken out all four monks, and ruduced the bulk of the chimera riders and the clerics to ash. At the end of their surprise and squad tactics, the leaders took flight to fight another day.
As for the dragon, I'd love to talk about it. It took me four hours to design with the help of the Draconomicon, Epic, and the MM (3.5). I used a computer (E-tools) for the initial design. Once I loaded the dragon with a host of great sorcerer and cleric spells, I gave the dragon surprise, with 5 rounds of prep spells, including a Time Stop for an additional three rounds of prep. The Dragon's Lair was underground, but large enough for the dragon to Wingover for another Flyby Attack or breath weapon routine. SR was high, abilities were high, I even assumed that once the dragon had adopted a high enough INT, and enough 9th level spells, it cast repeated wishes on itself to boost its stats by +4; all of the ability scores. The first attack was from invisability and hit the group with a Maximized Breath Weapon. WHAM! Killed the Wizard. Singed some, others evaded. Then I flew into a perch high above to cast spells and wait for the breath weapon to return. The group was grounded due to Dragon Lair Protections of some such nonsense. Essentially no fly or levitation. So how did they do it. The dimension doored, they teleported, they even managed to stun the dragon for a round to allow the fighters a shot at him. I thought I had it in the bag with all the prep, and yes, I was looking to end the campaign right then and there. They beat it! It was tight, but they pulled it out. Anyhow, I can take critizism, lay it on me!
UltimaGabe said:
The first problem, in my opinion, is the fact that you've got 8 characters, all at least 18th level. If there's at least two Clerics in the group (and I dare to wonder if there's even two Arcane spellcasters) then very little should be a challenge for your group, broken 9th level spell or not. The second, of course, is the challenges on your party. No single monster is going to be a challenge for eight opponents anywhere near its CR (that is, unless it's a CR 30something, a group of 8 PCs shouldn't have any trouble with it whatsoever). Not only that, but since when is an army of 9th-level characters a challenge for a character with 9th-level spells, let alone an entire group of 9th-level spells? And the third thing is that you're making way too big of a deal. If the party has to spend at least one 9th level spell before EVERY ENCOUNTER, then the only thing they're doing is using up their resources. How many encounters do you throw at them a day? Do you let them rest after every one? If that's the case, no wonder they have no qualms about using near-epic buffs before every battle! I mean, it sounds like a good spell, but how is it broken if it uses up a huge amount of resources for a single battle?
It sounds to me like you're making an Lich's crypt out of a Zombie horde (or, to use the vernacular, a mountain out of a molehill). It doesn't sound at all like the spell has any problem with it- it sounds like you're not sending the challenges you should be for a party of that size and that level, you're giving them too many opportunities to replenish resources, and you're not noticing how little of an effect the spell's actually having. Don't be surprised if they do things that surprise you- they're 8 18th+ level characters. If I was throwing around 9th-level spells, you'd have a lot more to worry about that reducing damage, trust me.
In both cases, the group is just able to assorb to much HP with the spell. I could see it effecting less, but since I have eight, it just does too much help, at the end of the first 7 rounds of combat, the group in the barbarian camp raid have taken in most cases, less than 10% of their total HP. Toss in the fact that the cleric can cast a Mass Heal, twice, and that's 250 HP X 8 PCs X two spells; it's a lot to overcome.
My thought now is to invent the counter spell and ask if it is balanced. How about a 9th level cleric spell that allowed all of your comrades to add 50% to all of their damage? Does that sound broken?
Aluvial
Besides, it doesn't change spell damage and stuff like that.
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
