[Spell Compendium] Ray of Light

[Piratecat]

Saying that you wouldn't have fun in someone else's game is a backhanded ad hominem. You of all people should know that PC.

I'm not trying to insult you - I apologize that I didn't make that clear. I have absolutely no doubt that you're a good DM, and I know you have no problem getting players. My comment was (at least in my head) one about DM style; your style seems to be very different than mine in many ways, and in ways that are sacred cows for me. That makes for a good internal discussion when I read your posts, because you often present viewpoints that I wouldn't have otherwise considered. That's a good thing for me.

Please forgive me for making it sound like an attack; that wasn't the intention.

Back to the thread!

 

[Twowolves]

Only if the spell effects are visible. Deflection of a ray could occur from a variety of sources, so how does someone know that it occurred due to this spell, or due to something else the NPC might have up at the same time?

A touch attack is essentially hitting the physical form of a target without having to get through or around armor. If a ray succeeded in it's touch attack, then it should have "connected" with the target. If the ray is then deflected away, I'd say the spell effect is visible enough for a spellcraft roll. In any case, it should be obvious that a ray "hit" the target, and that something prevented the spell from taking effect.

 

[Thanee]

Would it not count as a "spell already in effect" and thus be subject to a Spellcraft check?

Yeah, if you have Spellcraft, you can determine the exact nature of the spell (if it is a spell), otherwise the descriptions will be more vague, of course, but there will be some hint.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Why did you pick the order this way?

Because it makes sense to me. Touch AC comes first, obviously, since if you don't even hit, you cannot even hope to get through the armor. The rest follows pretty much automatically.

PS. Where do you put a cover bonus in the order?

Cover helps against touch attacks, so it is on a level with Dex and deflection bonuses. I put it first (even before Dex), basically raising the 10 base AC to 14.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Because it makes sense to me. Touch AC comes first, obviously, since if you don't even hit, you cannot even hope to get through the armor. The rest follows pretty much automatically.

Cover helps against touch attacks, so it is on a level with Dex and deflection bonuses. I put it first (even before Dex), basically raising the 10 base AC to 14.

That makes sense.

I've always done it slightly different.

For example, if you did not have the cover, you would not have the AC 24, you would have AC 20. Hence, I put cover at ACs 20 through 23. Different strokes.

I'll have to consider using your method. It does simplify some things with regard to cover (in my game, you can hit the cover with a ranged attack, even if that cover is another PC).

 

[Thanee]

For example, if you did not have the cover, you would not have the AC 24, you would have AC 20. Hence, I put cover at ACs 20 through 23.

That logic applies to every AC bonus, though.

If you did not wear your armor...
If you wouldn't be so nimble...




Concerning striking (other characters as) cover, then it's actually best to have it last, since the rule was (IIRC) that if you do not hit merely because of the cover modifier, then your attack roll is compared to the covering character's AC, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

That logic applies to every AC bonus, though.

If you did not wear your armor...
If you wouldn't be so nimble...

True, but I typically do not describe every single hit or miss as:

You glance off his shield OR
You bounce off his armor OR
You miss him completely.

I might do this one attack in five or so, but not every single one.

Whew. What a workload!

Instead for me, cover is the important thing because cover (in my game due to my house rules) can more easily result in one creature hitting another unintended creature with a ranged attack.

Concerning striking (other characters as) cover, then it's actually best to have it last, since the rule was (IIRC) that if you do not hit merely because of the cover modifier, then your attack roll is compared to the covering character's AC, or not?

And, there is another reason. Once PCs and NPCs get to a certain level, they'll never hit cover if it is always AC 10 to 13 once their "to hit" gets high enough.

Course, with your "10->DEX->Deflection/Luck->Shield->Armor->Natural Armor" type of rule, this is also true.

High level baddies never (shy of lowering their to hit with something like Power Attack) miss due to your Dex, it is always your shield, armor, natural armor, etc. that stops the attack when 2 (lowest non-1 roll) plus their "to hit" > "10->DEX->Deflection/Luck".

After thinking about it some more, it would seem that at some point, your order here starts to break down.

 

[Sirea]

And, there is another reason. Once PCs and NPCs get to a certain level, they'll never hit cover if it is always AC 10 to 13 once their "to hit" gets high enough.

Course, with your "10->DEX->Deflection/Luck->Shield->Armor->Natural Armor" type of rule, this is also true.

High level baddies never (shy of lowering their to hit with something like Power Attack) miss due to your Dex, it is always your shield, armor, natural armor, etc. that stops the attack when 2 (lowest non-1 roll) plus their "to hit" > "10->DEX->Deflection/Luck".

After thinking about it some more, it would seem that at some point, your order here starts to break down.

Isn't it normal that from a certain point on, attacks are so well aimed that indeed you can't dodge them anymore and have to rely on your '(natural) armor' AC to avoid getting hurt?
I feel Thanee's order still holds up.

 

[Thanee]

And there are still those attacks at -10 and -15, which fall into the normal range even for the better combatants.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Isn't it normal that from a certain point on, attacks are so well aimed that indeed you can't dodge them anymore and have to rely on your '(natural) armor' AC to avoid getting hurt?
I feel Thanee's order still holds up.

Does it?

Let's take an example:

PC has AC 30 (Natural Armor 3, +3 (Mithral) Platemail for 11, +2 Large Shield for 4, +2 Dex). NPC has +20 to hit. He needs to roll a 10.

On a 2 to 9, he misses because of armor or natural armor.

If the PC loses his Dex, the opponent needs to roll an 8. He still always misses because of armor or natural armor.

This means that although the PCs Dex makes him not get hit as often (9 or less versus 7 or less), the NPC always misses due to armor or natural armor.

Never due to Dex.

This is illogical. If it was not for the Dex, the NPC would hit more often. But, this is never reflected in Thanee's order. Dex never stops the attack although Dex increases the chance to miss. That's an oxymoron.


Hence, putting an order in at all is really an oxymoron except at (typically low) levels where all of the possibilities can occur. Once to hits go above 10, the rational goes out the window.