[Spell Compendium] Ray of Light

[Sirea]

You're right, it's paradoxical.

All in all the 'AC order' is just a tool to enhance storytelling during combat, not a game mechanic that has to be 100% solid. I think you'll hit inconsistencies either order one designs.

Actually in our own campaign each time an NPC misses a PC by exactly 1, we cheer about the good choice of target for the Dodge feat. So that's already contradicting Thanee's order and what I previously said.

I'd just say go with what feels right at the moment. There's no need for complicating things during combat by calculating exactly what part of AC made you miss.

If it is really obvious to the characters, I think it is appropriate that the DM gives a clue of what makes the opponent so hard to hit. Is it the very thick hide (Natural Armor), the impressive full plate (Armor), some strong magical barrier (Shield spell, Mage Armor spell, Bracers of Armor, deflection AC), or the sheer nimbleness (Dex and other Dodge AC) of the opponent ... ?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Well, I really like Thanee's order, enough that I'm committing it to memory for use in my own game.

I don't agree that it's illogical; In the example below that you give, the NPC with +20 to hit is so good at targetting that a +2 dex bonus is simply never quick enough to evade his aim. Hitting the PC is like hitting the side of a barn for him, and when he fails to connect, it's because the PCs armor blocks the blow.

Assume the PC was instead, super quick, and had an AC of 39(+11 dex bonus). Then he would be so fast that the NPC couldn't always connect with him at all, and on low rolls, Thanee's method would indicate a description saying that the NPC had completely missed due to the PC dodging out of the way.

Ken

Does it?

Let's take an example:

PC has AC 30 (Natural Armor 3, +3 (Mithral) Platemail for 11, +2 Large Shield for 4, +2 Dex). NPC has +20 to hit. He needs to roll a 10.

On a 2 to 9, he misses because of armor or natural armor.

If the PC loses his Dex, the opponent needs to roll an 8. He still always misses because of armor or natural armor.

This means that although the PCs Dex makes him not get hit as often (9 or less versus 7 or less), the NPC always misses due to armor or natural armor.

Never due to Dex.

This is illogical. If it was not for the Dex, the NPC would hit more often. But, this is never reflected in Thanee's order. Dex never stops the attack although Dex increases the chance to miss. That's an oxymoron.


Hence, putting an order in at all is really an oxymoron except at (typically low) levels where all of the possibilities can occur. Once to hits go above 10, the rational goes out the window.

 

[Thanee]

If attack bonuses are so high, that your touch AC always gets hit ('cept with a natural 1), then you are obviously not able to dodge blows anymore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sirea]

What KarinsDad meant with it being illogical was that the loss of Dex to AC does make the PC easier to damage, so Dex AC does factor in, except that it doesn't factor in because it's trivial to 'hit' (as in: touch) the PC.

Maybe easier to explain with an example (KD's, but more extreme, for emphasis):
- PC has AC 30 (Natural Armor 3, +3 (Mithral) Platemail for 11, +2 Large Shield for 4, + Dex). PC also has the Improved Combat Expertise feat (and BAB 10).
- NPC has +20 to hit. He needs to roll a 10.

Now PC uses Improved Combat Expertise for an extra 10 (Dodge) AC. So his total AC is now 40. NPC has to roll a natural 20 now to damage PC. "Yes, due to the greatly improved Dodge AC PC has now!", one would think.
Except no, PC's Touch AC still is only 22 (10 base + 2 dex + 10 Impr. CE). So NPC still 'hits' PC with every roll, barring a natural 1. So from NPC's point of view, there's nothing nimble about PC, he's still as trivial to touch as before. That's paradoxal to the having to roll a natural 20 to actually damage PC: PC boosts his Dodge AC, making him nearly invunerable, yet none of the attacks are actually dodged. Every attack still connects, so you'd have to explain PC not being damaged because he has high (Natural) Armor, although his Armor AC didn't change at all.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I don't think this example shows a problem.

In this case, the NPC still doesn't completely miss the PC, but it takes all the NPCs effort to land even a glancing blow, which is blocked by the PC's armor.

Ken

What KarinsDad meant with it being illogical was that the loss of Dex to AC does make the PC easier to damage, so Dex AC does factor in, except that it doesn't factor in because it's trivial to 'hit' (as in: touch) the PC.

Maybe easier to explain with an example (KD's, but more extreme, for emphasis):
- PC has AC 30 (Natural Armor 3, +3 (Mithral) Platemail for 11, +2 Large Shield for 4, + Dex). PC also has the Improved Combat Expertise feat (and BAB 10).
- NPC has +20 to hit. He needs to roll a 10.

Now PC uses Improved Combat Expertise for an extra 10 (Dodge) AC. So his total AC is now 40. NPC has to roll a natural 20 now to damage PC. "Yes, due to the greatly improved Dodge AC PC has now!", one would think.
Except no, PC's Touch AC still is only 22 (10 base + 2 dex + 10 Impr. CE). So NPC still 'hits' PC with every roll, barring a natural 1. So from NPC's point of view, there's nothing nimble about PC, he's still as trivial to touch as before. That's paradoxal to the having to roll a natural 20 to actually damage PC: PC boosts his Dodge AC, making him nearly invunerable, yet none of the attacks are actually dodged. Every attack still connects, so you'd have to explain PC not being damaged because he has high (Natural) Armor, although his Armor AC didn't change at all.