Spell Dice?

[silvermane]

Here's another take at the mana point system:

All classes get a number of spell dice equal to their hit dice plus their spellcasting modifier (Wis/Int/Cha as per class description):

d4: rangers, paladins
d6: bards, adepts (NPCs)
d8: druids, clerics
d10: wizards, sorcerers
d12: reserved for some super caster class (possibly also wizards/clerics of a magic portfolio deity)

Spells cost 2x spell level (incl. level raised through metamagic). Spells from specialized schools and domain spells cost less (1.5 x spell level?) Cantrips cost 1 point (or are free under some conditions).

Characters regain 1 spell point per hour per ability modifier.

PrCs grant +1 spell die instead of the "+1 level of spellcasting class" feature.

Example: Level 12 sorcerer with 18 Cha has 12d10+48 spell points (114 on average). That means 19 3rd level spells such as fireball (21 under core rules) or 14 4th level spells (15 under core rules) etc. Not strictly per day, since it takes 28 1/2 hours for him to replenish all the spell points.

Another example: level 20 wizard (let's be generous and give him 22 Int from ability increases) has 20d10+120 spell points (230 on average). That's enough for 12 9th level spells, 14 8th level spells etc. Too much? But he must rest for almost two days (38 hours) afterwards.

How do you view this?

 

[evilbob]

Spells cost 2x spell level...

Won't work; linear progression. See evilbob's 1st Law of Spell Point System Creation for DnD Magic.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3399725&postcount=48

Example: Level 12 sorcerer with 18 Cha has 12d10+48 spell points (114 on average). That means 19 3rd level spells such as fireball (21 under core rules) or 14 4th level spells (15 under core rules) etc. Not strictly per day, since it takes 28 1/2 hours for him to replenish all the spell points.

Another example: level 20 wizard (let's be generous and give him 22 Int from ability increases) has 20d10+120 spell points (230 on average). That's enough for 12 9th level spells, 14 8th level spells etc. Too much? But he must rest for almost two days (38 hours) afterwards.

Honestly, I'd stay away from resting times that take longer than 8 hours. The whole rest of the game is set up that way; it's a hard thing to break/change. Also, your "total spells cast at highest level" is a bit much: 12 9th level spells is way too much for anyone at any time, even if you do drain yourself completely to do it.

 

[jasin]

The psionics system works reasonably well, and it's linear, no?

 

[azabaro]

I'm not fond of random character generation as things stand - this adds randomness, which means that characters of a given level can be even further apart in ability. Pity the poor Sorcerer who not only has to cope with d4 HD, but who also rolls badly for spell points - he knows fewer spells than Wizards, and due to bad rolls, can't even cast more spells to compensate! I also don't like the idea of reserving the d12 for a better caster than the Sorcerer or Wizard - both classes are already pretty much Commoners save for their spellcasting ability - how much worse would a class have to be to allow greater magical ability?

I also tend to agree with evilbob that your point recovery system feels off. Everybody else is set up to regain powers on a per-day basis - possibly because longer downtime might either be very costly ("We're stuck in a hostile environment where we might be subject to random attacks at any time") or essentially free (resting back in town).

PrCs grant +1 spell die instead of the "+1 level of spellcasting class" feature.

Question: what type of spell die should a given PrC provide, and what attribute modifier should be applied to it? Also, consider that "+1 level of existing class" increases caster level - how is caster level calculated according to your system? Is it based on total spellcasting dice (in which case a 5th level Paladin will cast CLW as well as a 5th level Cleric), or based on dividing the character's maximum spell points by some value, or is it still a separate calculation that might or might not add from one class to another?

 

[DreamChaser]

The psionics system works reasonably well, and it's linear, no?

no it's not. it is modified linear. the augementation cost keeps it from being truly linear.

 

[DreamChaser]

One issue with evilbob's rules and theorums is that the very assumption breaks nearly any MP system because it undervalues low level spells.

That is to say, that if we opt for a 2^(spell level) cap for spell points, we are still looking at a 9th level spell cost of 512. This translates to 256 1st level spells each day assuming that a 17th caster only has enough cast that one 9th level spell, which is absurd. in reality he would have 1804 MP assume anything similar to the current progression for a wizard (no bonus points taken into account). This is 902 1st level spells (or 50 1st level spells if we require them to pay the 2 points for each level they wish to augment their spells; 100 if they pay 1 point for each augmented level). If we keep damage caps in place, then the most a 1st level spell would cost is 10 which means 180 1st level spells. 180 cure light wounds, magic missiles, true strikes, etc.

This is worst case, even within evilbob's theorum but it still illustrates why a modified linear system is the only way to avoid undervaluing the low level spells when applied at high levels.

DC

It just occured to me that it that there is no augmentation possible for true strike so that is actually 900 true strikes. Also it would be more efficient to never augment cure spells, so again 900+

 

[silvermane]

Won't work; linear progression. See evilbob's 1st Law of Spell Point System Creation for DnD Magic.

What'd you recommend then? Logarithmic? Inverse proportional? I'm afraid that any concept that uses more than basic arithmetic is too difficult to apply in actual play (short of having an Excel sheet handy).

Actually, the system was not originally conceived for pen & paper roleplaying, but rather for a roguelike game using (some) d20 rules (which is vaporware and likely to remain so). Thus the spell distribution may be rather uncommon.

12 9th level spells is way too much for anyone at any time, even if you do drain yourself completely to do it.

Not if the mage was playing solo, as in the case of roguelikes (basically no widely known roguelike allows you to guide a team of adventurers).

Besides there may be additional constraints such as having to relearn the spell once it has been cast enough times (as in Nethack and ADOM) etc.

 

[evilbob]

What'd you recommend then? Logarithmic? Inverse proportional? I'm afraid that any concept that uses more than basic arithmetic is too difficult to apply in actual play (short of having an Excel sheet handy).

That's kind of the point. It -is- hard to come up with a good system, and whatever you do will probably involve at least one chart or some math. I'm working on a spell point system again myself, and I still can't tell you what's the best system. All I can tell you at the moment is what I know won't work. But at least it's something!

As for the rest of your post: if you want to add all kinds of additional constraints and exceptions, that's fine - but then really no one's advice will really help you unless you specify these out, and even then it may still be meaningless.