Spell Focus and Scribe Scroll

[Hypersmurf]

Checked your DMG lately? The rule is on page 176, "Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers"

Yup. And it's in the DMG index under "Saving Throws, Against Magic Items" and "Magic Items, Saving Throws Against".

Hard to miss if you look for it.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Spell Focus and Scribe Scroll

Edit: Actually, any Metamagic feat might raise the minimum ability score and thus the DC, but they don't get the DC boost for just being a higher level spell (apart from Heighten).

Just occurred to me that that's not accurate after all. You only need a Wisdom of 11 to cast a Maximized Double-Empowered Silent Cure Light Wounds. It uses a 9th level slot, but it's still a 1st level spell for the purpose of minimum ability score.

Right?

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Re: Spell Focus and Scribe Scroll

Just occurred to me that that's not accurate after all. You only need a Wisdom of 11 to cast a Maximized Double-Empowered Silent Cure Light Wounds. It uses a 9th level slot, but it's still a 1st level spell for the purpose of minimum ability score.

Right?

-Hyp.

I don't know, iperpuffo... if you have a 17th+ level Cleric with Wisdom 18, you still get the 9th level spell slots, but you can fill them only with 8th level spells or lower. I am not sure you can fill them with metamagicked spells, is there a FAQ somewhere about it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's ask Customer Service!

Heh.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Let's ask Customer Service!

Heh.

-Hyp.

We ARE our own customer service!

 

[Jotun]

Hypersmurf wrote:

You only need a Wisdom of 11 to cast a Maximized Double-Empowered Silent Cure Light Wounds. It uses a 9th level slot, but it's still a 1st level spell for the purpose of minimum ability score.

I'm not so sure about that. If it was in a game where I was the DM, I would interpret it differently. A 1st level spell tricked out with Metamagic feats is no longer a 1st level spell no matter which way you look at it. The example above is using a 9th level spell slot, so as a DM, I'm going to treat it as all other 9th level spells are. This includes the prerequisite Ability Score needed for such a high level spell to be cast.

My "in game" rationale for this is that even though the 1st level Cure Light Wounds spell can be cast by a 1st level Cleric with an 11 Wisdom, the same spell with all those Metamagic Feats tacked onto it becomes a more much powerful and complicated spell. Such a powerful spell requires greater wisdom, just like a straight-up 9th level spell would.

If it ever comes up in a game that I am playing with my friends, I'll share my thoughts and interpretation and we'll come to a fair agreement. Hopefully you'll find something that works for you as well, even if your way is different than mine. It's not a 100% cut and dry issue I suppose, so it's up to you to find a way that maintains happiness and game balance for your group. Good luck and have fun playin'!

 

[CRGreathouse]

Just occurred to me that that's not accurate after all. You only need a Wisdom of 11 to cast a Maximized Double-Empowered Silent Cure Light Wounds. It uses a 9th level slot, but it's still a 1st level spell for the purpose of minimum ability score.

Right?

You're right that the minimum Wisdom is 11, but I think the DC would still go up as if you had Wis 19. The formula is also given (in the DMG) as spell level * 1.5, and I'd be willing to give the wand the benefit of the doubt here.

I've brought this up before, but I doubt anyone at Wizards thought to fix this for the revision.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Spell Focus and Scribe Scroll

I don't know, iperpuffo... if you have a 17th+ level Cleric with Wisdom 18, you still get the 9th level spell slots, but you can fill them only with 8th level spells or lower. I am not sure you can fill them with metamagicked spells, is there a FAQ somewhere about it?

Yes, you can use matamagic. I'll see if I can pull up a quote.

 

[AuraSeer]

Hypersmurf is right: the ability score requirement for a metamagic spell is based on its original level. That metamagicked cure light wounds takes up a 9th level slot, but you can cast it with a Wis 11. (Though anyone who survives 'til Clr17 with only 11 Wis, must be a better gamer than I. )

Check the FRCS FAQ, page 2, where it talks about Szass Tam. He can cast spells from 16th-level slots, even though he has only Int 22.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Spell Focus and Scribe Scroll

The formula is also given (in the DMG) as spell level * 1.5, and I'd be willing to give the wand the benefit of the doubt here.

But that formula is already broken for Metamagic spells, because an Empowered Fireball has a base DC of 13+ modifier, while a Cone of Cold is 15+ modifier. Even if you allow the same minimum modifier (+2, instead of +1 for Fireball), it still won't fit the formula.

-Hyp.