Spell level design considerations?

[fireinthedust]

Why are spells the level they are (in 3.5, PFrpg, AE, etc.)?

In fact, in any game with spell level progressions what are the main considerations for designing spells by level? I suppose 4e powers could fit into the idea of a by-level spread of abilities. True20 would also fit, and the Dragon Age RPG...

I ask because I'm trying to ground myself in the "why" of it all. What is the overall scheme when designing spells, and proper considerations for making them so the system overall "works"?

Whatever the system is, what design needs must be met for the spell/power/ability system to function?

Or just not suck at the table...

 

[Meek]

It's a bit more nebulous in D&D 3.5, but the reason certain spells are the level they are is because of the types of enemies and the kinds of adventures that happen at those levels. You don't want weather control and raise dead and overland flight at level 1, when PCs are supposed to be fragile up-and-comers fighting pests like Kobolds. D&D 3.5 at least, makes world-changing spells start showing up around 5th level spells (9th-10th level casters). Of course it's kind of a flimsy argument, as some messed up spells do show up at those levels to be abused, if you have enough books to search through you'll find something or other that doesn't quite fit in with the rest.

In D&D 4e, powers are staggered over the levels based on rising damage and having better secondary effects. At 1st level you're lucky to have a power that Dazes people and it'd be really useful, but Daze isn't that good at 23rd level when you can get powers that Stun or Dominate. In 4e, the idea that certain powers are for certain levels is even more visible because of the clear tier divisions. In epic tier you're in extraplanar locations fighting demons and giant elementals and abominations, so your powers have to deal high damage or have incredible effects (or both) to keep up with the epic feel. In the heroic tier, you're supposed to find a bunch of kobolds or orcs or other pest monsters a problem, so you can't be doing 5[W] + 20 and stun in a Close Burst 10 or something.

Certain adventures happen at certain level ranges, and getting certain powers earlier would invalidate them. If you can get teleport at level 1 you don't have to travel anywhere on horse back and you don't have to worry about being imprisoned and so on. Finding an actual, hard system to tell you "this spell HAS to be THIS level BECAUSE of THIS" is a lot harder than this, though.

 

[howandwhy99]

Meek has a pretty good explanation as to why spell levels are what they are. Most of 3E and all of 4E spells are balanced by damage output and more powerful maneuvers for combat. 3E and pre-d20 D&D special abilities or spells, powers really, are balanced by the environment, which is also divided up into levels. Starting dungeon levels are overland and 1st level tunnel-based with higher level powers enabling greater success in and access to more dangerous dungeon levels. So communication becomes easier as does travel. Building things is more cost effective with certain powers. Manipulating and controlling NPCs and creatures gets easier. It really depends upon the power in question and the manner in which the world is divided into level appropriate regions as to how a power's level is determined.

Think of it like the monster ladder: Kobolds to Orcs to Lizardmen to Hill Giants to Stone Giants to Cloud and Storm Giants at the hardest to reach levels. The plains are fairly easy to fight in, hills and forests more difficult with higher level monsters, swamp are pretty difficult terrain, underwater adventuring comes in after ship costs are reached, mountain travel is easier with wind walking and teleporting, but the monsters there are incrementally more powerful too. Clouds hold Giant castles and mountain peaks have Roc lairs and dragons as well. It's the typical 1 thru 10 increasing power level dungeon, but the dungeon is the whole multiverse.

PS: This works in reverse too. Lawfully-aligned creatures are higher in level as you progress deeper into their dungeons (cities / civilized lands) as well. The power center would be the bottom of that dungeon, peak of the pyramid, or center of that onion.

 

[fireinthedust]

I get that with 4e, that the powers are based around damage + secondary effects (or vice versa) getting bigger as the hero levels. This due to monster HP. Good.

3e I get that there is a range of effects in spells that are limited according to threats the heroes would theoretically need at a given level (ie: no teleporting until the narrative can replace normal jails with magical vortices and force cubes).

The monster ladder is good for generic creatures, the campaign standards used as benchmarks for secondary monster-catalogues to base new creatures around (ie: this monster is comparable to a kobold; this one fills the role of frost giant, etc.). Though I think that's relative as a proposition, but I see what you mean.

I would like to add that it sounds like the spell lists are limited according to scenario. However, a different campaign model means different spells should be allowed at different levels: a low-level ghost campaign where physical prisons aren't an issue could allow teleport. A planar campaign, or one that jumps between mountain tops, could need those abilities to some degree right from the get-go.

 

[howandwhy99]

I would like to add that it sounds like the spell lists are limited according to scenario. However, a different campaign model means different spells should be allowed at different levels: a low-level ghost campaign where physical prisons aren't an issue could allow teleport. A planar campaign, or one that jumps between mountain tops, could need those abilities to some degree right from the get-go.

If you are playing a single scenario, one-shot, or whatever, then I would definitely take specific powers into account. That includes magic items, spells, and special abilities.

A ghost campaign isn't quite the same as everyone having the teleport ability at will however. Rather it's incorporeality, so there will not be any challenges regarding breathing, eating, substances (like solids, gases, liquids), and death. If combat is relevant though, you may want to rethink the last one. In terms of the dungeon-leveled world the onion layer concept doesn't go away, but non-ethereal environmental details will mostly be irrelevant. Teleport, especially teleport ability without prior knowledge of a location, will allow PCs to slip between those layers and into the ghost dragon's lair at step one. I'd think about that too when determining the ability.

Most folks planar campaigns are like weird prime material worlds rather than the domains of the deities. Well, weirder than they normally are. If it's the later, the challenge-by-level game goes by the boards. On the other hand, if you start with dragons and deity avatars at 1st level, you may want to think about not having varied power levels for monsters and PCs at all. That is unless you have something even more powerful to work up to, which I'm not thinking of.

 

[fireinthedust]

imagine a dungeon: you go room by room, encounter to encounter. You can't go through the doors until you get to them, or unlock them. There are monsters.

Now: replace rooms with planes. Instead of doors you have portals or plane shift spells (only possible at certain locations). Instead of walking through the room, you can float freely between flying rocks. There are monsters.

Ignoring the challenge-by-level aspect, level one is what it is based on the math and the characters' abilities within the environment. I'd argue that high level is better described as complex play.

EDIT: for example, if you played a Mutants & Masterminds game set in 3e's "epic" setting of (Union?), but had the heroes at PL10 and the "gods" at PL20, with other so-called "epic" foes around the PCs in level. Would that be high-level play or low-level play?


This is helping, thanks folks.