Spell Path

[Greenfield]

Can you dodge an "instantaneous" thing such as a ray spell, or a Fireball?

Hmm. Difficult question.

Does the target get to use Dexterity modifiers for touch AC or reflex saves?

If so, the answer is yes.

Does the bead travel at arrow speed? (200-220 ft/sec) No way to say. It's never defined anywhere in the rules.

 

[Frostbiter01]

If you shoot someone, with an arrow or bead or ray or javelin, then their choice to take the hit (or more likely, to avoid being hit) influences your chance of success, so we know that the intent of the defender is still relevant on this scale of action.

You could make this very complex. Obviously those caught in the explosion get a reflex save to see hw much if any damage they take. that is all the parties even if there is no obstruction have to make a save the wizard can drop that spell precisely anywhere he wants like right in front of your nose.

So let us look at it this way. A Sorcerer shoots a fireball from 50' away into the square adjacent to a Wizard, Rogue and Fighter. They can't react to it before it gets there per the rules. The Rogue can't tumble away, the wizard can't cast a non readied counter spell nor can the fighter throw his ax or shield 10 ' in front to cause the fireball to erupt. It goes there and they can but only react to the blast itself called a saving throw.


Same scenario but this time there are 2 Trolls battling 4 Men-at-arms in front of the Sorcerer about 20' in front of him. He still wants to blast this in a square far enough to get the 3 characters 30' behind the line. Again he needs to get through the line of fighters some who have their back t him. They are moving erratically and constantly. Yet because he cannot fly above to the ceiling which is 10' (Troll head is grazing it) he fires low through the square of one men-at-arms and the right side of one troll square. Neither can avoid it just like the 3 sitting far behind the line cannot. This type of spell (Fireball) requires an unobstructed line for it to reach its target square. This pea size orb that leaves the palm and you have to see if the spell can pass though without being disrupted.


Now I have to admit that hen firing say a ray of enfeeblement at target like the Dwarf fighter in the back, you have a different calculation. From the Sorcerer's view the Dwarf has 90% cover while also firing through melee. Thus the touch AC of the dwarf might have a +6 to AC and a -4 to the attack. Even if he just misses the rules do not say it hits the cover. In the 2nd edition that cover would take the hit if close to hitting the AC, not so in 3.5. So I understand some of the consternation in this discussion but the actual arrow slit is used to explain of putting a spell through a tight place.

One other scenario we had is this. The party entered a chamber and came onto fight some Derro with 2 ogres. The darkness spells fell all over the cavern right away. The Ranger and Dwarf waded into the darkness to take care of the Ogres even though Derro were coming up from all sides. Despite the Darkness spells the wizard asked to throw a max empowered Fireball about 20' behind the where the ogres stood, to scorch them and any upcoming reinforcements. I said that you had one round to see the cavern and it had both stalactites and stalagmites along with the creatures. It had a low uneven ceiling from 10 -12 feet high so you run the risk of hitting another creature in the darkness. They said we can see shadowy creatures (another thread I started on darkness sought to clarify what they can really see) and said as an expert he could easily remember and place it where he wanted. Without metagaming he had to go through one Ogre, the Ranger and 2 more Derro before it hit the square. Again t me he has a chance maybe not automatic to hit one of those creatures but a chance that he can't control. If I understand darkness spell better it may help but that is in the other thread. f course this was in an Underdark cavern which means it went from pitch black to shadowy illumination, just like the Derro like!

 

[Kessalin Talira]

You're making this situation unnecessarily difficult. It's a 20' wide by 10' high hallway. If the caster aims his fireball at the ceiling it will go over the heads of his friends and thread between a few troll heads, none of which will logically create an opening smaller than an arrow slit. Punish the casters with arbitrary rulings all you want, but while you're doing so, make sure you're also thanking them for only casting fireball. There are much worse things they could be doing.

Regarding the original post, your thought that this would have any effect whatsoever on ray spells is incorrect. Rays are completely different in that there is a tangible spell effect linking the caster and his target, albeit momentarily. Someone interrupting that ray will be affected by the spell, which is why rays require attack rolls and benefit from Precise Shot and Weapon Focus. The fireball is more like a bullet or grenade than a laser or flamethrower. If someone sticks their arm out a split second after the fireball goes by, nothing happens. If they do the same thing into a scorching ray, that's translated into mechanical terms by the caster missing his attack roll.

If you feel you're absolutely justified in making the sorcerer make an attack roll in this situation, it shouldn't be over AC 10. That's one higher than the AC 5 arrow slit with an additional penalty for firing through melee or cover. Don't be surprised if the sorcerer calls you out any, and every, time your bad guys are in a similar situation, though. They'll be justified in doing so.

 

[Greenfield]

You want to eliminate the pinpoint placement of Fireballs? Run the rules as written:

By the book, the caster doesn't select a spot, he/she states a distance and picks a direction, and the spell runs from there. Attack rolls are called for only when trying to thread the spell through a tight space.

So get one of those no-glare page protectors and keep it around. They're frosted. When the player says he's casting Fireball, immediately lay the slightly frosted page protector over the battlefield, miniatures and all, so he can't easily see the grid lines on the mat, and ask him the distance he's throwing it, and the direction.

Remove the frosted plastic, count the distance from his figure along the direction he called for, and lay your fireball template over the selected target. (If you don't have a fireball template, get or make one. You can bend one out of common house wire in about 5 minutes and you're covered forever more.)

This way, worst case, he needs to plot his "pinpoint" placement ahead of time and not take 10 minutes making up his mind. Since he doesn't seem to be good on tactical planning, maybe he'll fall out of love with Fireball.

Oh, and remember that the only ruler at the table belongs to you. The player can't pick his spot and measure. He has to guesstimate, just like in real life.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I've posted this opinion before I'm sure, but rather than go back through 10 or 15 years of posts I'll just type it up again.

OK we have had a discussion and the spell descriptions and the Wizards archives are not clear. I had a battle in the hall way against a number of trolls that were charging the party. The hallway was 20' wide by 10' tall. The Dwarf, Ranger and Cleric created a barrier line taking on the first two trolls with the Rogue helping out with his bow. The Sorcerer was 10' behind the Ranger and wanted to cast fireball behind the two trolls (10'space each) who were blocking all 20' of hallway to hit the 3 other trolls coming up close behind about another 30' back.

As I read these spells if it hits any thing solid it explodes or stops. The Sorcerer fought this and I disagreed. On spells like this before they are quick to say if "I have LOS to at least one corner of his square I can hit him". Now they wanted to put the fireball through the rangers square then the 4 squares of the troll and blast it about 15' behnd them. Am I wrong or is the player? He states that his Sorcerer is a professional so he should have the ability to fire it between flailing legs and arms no matter how many creatures are there, I disagree. This decision would have major effects for many rays and other spells of this type.

The rules you're looking for are p.175-176 of the PH. Fireball is a 20'r. spread. That just means that the fire effect goes around corners. Other than that you need line of effect to a "point of origin" - the intended location for the center of the spell effect. Even, "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect." [PH p.175.] A troll is not a solid barrier. Two trolls are not a solid barrier. Two trolls beyond a PC on the front line are still not what constitutes a solid barrier.

The player is correct in this: If his PC can see one corner of a square - he can hit it. Pretty much like a ranged attack [this is PH p.151]: If the line between caster and the point of origin passes through a square that blocks line-of-SIGHT, provides cover, or is occupied by a creature, then according to the rules for RANGED attacks and cover there's a +4 bonus to AC. Below that there's a note about cover and reflex saving throws - Fireball being the example used. It says that cover will provide a +2 to the save - but Fireball NEGATES that bonus because it's a spread effect which extends AROUND cover. Technically, that applies only to the exploding ball of fire itself and not the pea that's streaking to the point of origin prior to the explosion, but the principle is the same, which is: If you can SEE it, then you can drop a spell there. Same as shooting an arrow at a target - if you can SEE it, then you can SHOOT it; having cover just makes it a little more difficult. For spells that difficulty is represented by adjustments to saving throws, or perhaps a ranged touch attack such as for rays or the specific mention of arrow slits and fireballs.

You know that part about putting a fireball through an arrow slit? Know what that's about? That's about putting a fireball through an arrow slit! It's NOT a general rule for targeting of the spell at all times. If it were about making a ranged-touch attack ANY time there were something remotely in the way then it would say, "ANY TIME there is something in the way between the caster and the point of origin the caster must make a ranged touch attack - or else..." But it says "arrow slit". Know how big an arrow slit is in general? About 1 square foot is not an unreasonable approximation - an area like is described on p.175 in the rule about line-of-effect. In other words, if there is 1 square foot or less of space in an otherwise SOLID WALL then you make a ranged touch attack to get a fireball through. If there is more space than that, then a ranged touch attack IS NOT REQUIRED. In fact, NO special targeting is then required.

Now if you WANT there to be special problems for targeting a fireball beyond what's already written into the spell and the rules that's one thing - but that's a DM's OWN decision at work, not the rules at work.

One of the other issues that seems to get tossed into people's issues with Fireball (when, oddly, it seldom seems to me to crop up in regard to any other spell), is that, "things are moving around." Well, technically that's true, but for the purposes of D&D rules it doesn't matter. Moving around a lot maybe makes your AC better. It might give you a bonus to a reflex save. It doesn't matter though if the trolls are taking 3 attacks or 33, nor if they're moving 30' or 330' in that round. Their melee combat movements do not enter into preventing arrows, spells, or even small creatures from getting by them. Heck the LARGER the creature the MORE space there is to get by them.

Yes, that's right - a size tiny creature, such as a cat or a hawk, can freely move through a square occupied by a size large troll (setting aside such things as attacks of opportunity, reach and threatened spaces). [PH, p.148] If a troll were one size larger, "giant", then size "small" Halflings would be able to move freely past them (and vice versa - the giant would be able to step over a Halfling without issue). But an even smaller arrow, or the pea of a fireball is to be blocked? Nope. Just not how that works.

Because it's a game and it's TURN-based - when it's your turn to act, things are where they are. You don't factor in where they were, where they will be, nor what they are doing now, were doing a moment ago, or will be doing on their turn. For purposes of SANITY in determining what you can or can't see, target, affect, hit, etc. NOTHING IS MOVING. For purposes of making rules determinations, everything is frozen right where it is while you make your determinations. When things DO happen simultaneously there are rules to cover it. Rules like taking readied actions. But even if the caster and the trolls are taking their turns simultaneously, for purposes of making targeting determinations, nobody is really moving at all and positions are further constrained into units of 5' squares. There's no reason to be making Fireball an exception to any of that, beyond what it already is.

Lastly, just wanted to emphasize that the ENTIRE notion of the spell being able to detonate prematurely has never been about hitting things that you see. It's about the danger of the spell hitting things that you DON'T see. Things like a Wall of Force, or an invisible opponent. When you decide it's going to be about things you DO see instead of just the latter you're just burdening yourself with adjudication headaches and have nobody but yourself to blame for it. Honestly, I half expected that 3E's rules for spell effects would have finally eliminated Fireball as a continuing problem, if only for 3E, but it still keeps going and going...

I'm not sure what it is about Fireball exactly that makes DM's so crazy about how to handle it.

JMNSHO

 

[Frostbiter01]

The rules you're looking for are p.175-176 of the PH. Fireball is a 20'r. spread. That just means that the fire effect goes around corners. Other than that you need line of effect to a "point of origin" - the intended location for the center of the spell effect. Even, "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect." [PH p.175.] A troll is not a solid barrier. Two trolls are not a solid barrier. Two trolls beyond a PC on the front line are still not what constitutes a solid barrier.

The question was not on the mechanic of the spread we know the action once it hits something or explodes at a designated point. Even in your answer above you have but muddled the waters without answering the question. If there is a hole in an iron wall to pass a spell out but a monster stands in front of the hole you cannot fire through it. Secondly if the monster moves back and forth so that you only have partial view of the 12”x12” hole you would have an obstruction to this and possibly be considered less than 12”x12” so he is prohibited or does he still get to try and roll some modified roll? Now say there is a solid door with a 12”x12” opening with 3 solid 1”w x 12”L iron bars in the opening thus reducing the availability to actually view through be 9”x9” is this still allowed to cast Fireball through or does it not now meet the 12” minimum? What if the party is at a wall and can see into a room down the shoot about 5’ long but it is 12”x12” opening. But in the middle is a fan blade that moves inside the shoot and in a 4 second sweep shows fully blocked during second 1, seconds 2 and 4 show partially blocked and second 3 shows unblocked. Do you allow the fireball to enter the room or say it is not achievable thus automatic failure for the wizard if he tries anyway or do you create an obstructed shot with a chance of hitting the blade?

The player is correct in this: If his PC can see one corner of a square - he can hit it. Pretty much like a ranged attack [this is PH p.151]: If the line between caster and the point of origin passes through a square that blocks line-of-SIGHT, provides cover, or is occupied by a creature, then according to the rules for RANGED attacks and cover there's a +4 bonus to AC. Below that there's a note about cover and reflex saving throws - Fireball being the example used. It says that cover will provide a +2 to the save - but Fireball NEGATES that bonus because it's a spread effect which extends AROUND cover. Technically, that applies only to the exploding ball of fire itself and not the pea that's streaking to the point of origin prior to the explosion, but the principle is the same, which is: If you can SEE it, then you can drop a spell there. Same as shooting an arrow at a target - if you can SEE it, then you can SHOOT it; having cover just makes it a little more difficult. For spells that difficulty is represented by adjustments to saving throws, or perhaps a ranged touch attack such as for rays or the specific mention of arrow slits and fireballs.

Again you do not take into account that seeing the corner of a square does not mean you can hit it. The mage fires from through a door window from 15’ away only to have it explode because there was a very clear window in it that his spot check did not reveal. Do you allow it to pass through? The wizard fires across the room to envelop a small NPC party but after traveling 10’ it explodes as there was a wall of force thrown up during battle that the Wizard did not spot. Though they can see the spot it will not reach the given square? Why because there is a rule that states this spell if it hits something solid (whatever it is) it explodes. A wizard fires a fireball to the other end of a passage thinking to take out 4 orc guards. Unfortunately, there is a large Ogre Brute who is invisible standing still waiting for the party to approach halfway between them and the orcs. Hmm, he takes up 4 squares of the hallway no way around and his head club near the ceiling with the wizard firing about 5’ off the floor which is about the widest point of the Ogre. Did he hit it or because he is not a totally solid obstacle do you rule he gets to fire it straight down even if the line of effect went straight down the middle of the hallway? I think we are trying to say if the target is obstructed from view part of the time it is harder to hit. If there is something in front of that spell that the wizard is unaware of, it becomes harder to hit.

You know that part about putting a fireball through an arrow slit? Know what that's about? That's about putting a fireball through an arrow slit! It's NOT a general rule for targeting of the spell at all times. If it were about making a ranged-touch attack ANY time there were something remotely in the way then it would say, "ANY TIME there is something in the way between the caster and the point of origin the caster must make a ranged touch attack - or else..." But it says "arrow slit". Know how big an arrow slit is in general? About 1 square foot is not an unreasonable approximation - an area like is described on p.175 in the rule about line-of-effect. In other words, if there is 1 square foot or less of space in an otherwise SOLID WALL then you make a ranged touch attack to get a fireball through. If there is more space than that, then a ranged touch attack IS NOT REQUIRED. In fact, NO special targeting is then required.

This is true it is an arrow slit but it is a standard to be compared too because if it was just the 12x12 hole in a solid surface then that is all they would have to say they would not have to say an arrow slit at all. Again we are not saying to target the spell at all times just certain circumstances. No one is disputing clean openings we are talking openings that close or shrink below legal size during combat.

Now if you WANT there to be special problems for targeting a fireball beyond what's already written into the spell and the rules that's one thing - but that's a DM's OWN decision at work, not the rules at work.

Actually I think that is what you are doing, by ignoring other rules and conditions.

One of the other issues that seems to get tossed into people's issues with Fireball (when, oddly, it seldom seems to me to crop up in regard to any other spell), is that, "things are moving around." Well, technically that's true, but for the purposes of D&D rules it doesn't matter. Moving around a lot maybe makes your AC better. It might give you a bonus to a reflex save. It doesn't matter though if the trolls are taking 3 attacks or 33, nor if they're moving 30' or 330' in that round. Their melee combat movements do not enter into preventing arrows, spells, or even small creatures from getting by them. Heck the LARGER the creature the MORE space there is to get by them.

While I agree with you that it does and doesn’t matter about moving around, I think the rules are clear you are. In fact that is why back attacks are not really permissible you are said to be moving back and forth able to defend all flanks. The rules say it is a 6 second round that all parties are moving in and unless you are playing a countdown in that round by initiative you have to consider the battel of thrusts and parries to be included in the round. I would say you have a point if a surprise round or flat footed targets but we are not talking about that here. Firing through obstructions is a +4 to AC as explained by others above. This was a plausible explanation to use in targeting a given square.

Yes, that's right - a size tiny creature, such as a cat or a hawk, can freely move through a square occupied by a size large troll (setting aside such things as attacks of opportunity, reach and threatened spaces). [PH, p.148] If a troll were one size larger, "giant", then size "small" Halflings would be able to move freely past them (and vice versa - the giant would be able to step over a Halfling without issue). But an even smaller arrow, or the pea of a fireball is to be blocked? Nope. Just not how that works.

To compare innate objects like arrows and spells with the same intelligence as the Halfling or the Giant who is watching where they step or move and do not move in a straight pattern nor do they move through the solid body of the other or step on the solid body unless rolling for an attack, on the other is nonsensical.

Because it's a game and it's TURN-based - when it's your turn to act, things are where they are. You don't factor in where they were, where they will be, nor what they are doing now, were doing a moment ago, or will be doing on their turn. For purposes of SANITY in determining what you can or can't see, target, affect, hit, etc. NOTHING IS MOVING. For purposes of making rules determinations, everything is frozen right where it is while you make your determinations. When things DO happen simultaneously there are rules to cover it. Rules like taking readied actions. But even if the caster and the trolls are taking their turns simultaneously, for purposes of making targeting determinations, nobody is really moving at all and positions are further constrained into units of 5' squares. There's no reason to be making Fireball an exception to any of that, beyond what it already is.

If you freeze everything into a nonrealistic statue game then yes you could play it like that. There are still rules about moving through the ORC space even though I am moving and they are not according to your terms and attacks of opportunity are about me moving but they are not frozen I can attest. If you make it more mechanical rather than in the flow of the game in presenting challenges you could rule it that way. I guess everyone makes their hide and move silent right. Since on there turn there is no movement of opponents or you are not moving when they make their listen checks on you, except their breathing?

Lastly, just wanted to emphasize that the ENTIRE notion of the spell being able to detonate prematurely has never been about hitting things that you see. It's about the danger of the spell hitting things that you DON'T see. Things like a Wall of Force, or an invisible opponent. When you decide it's going to be about things you DO see instead of just the latter you're just burdening yourself with adjudication headaches and have nobody but yourself to blame for it. Honestly, I half expected that 3E's rules for spell effects would have finally eliminated Fireball as a continuing problem, if only for 3E, but it still keeps going and going...

This is exactly what we had happen twice as I have recalled at least one of them. The party entered a large natural cavern with both stalactites and stalagmites some as tall as 12’. As the party entered they immediately saw the cavern and saw movement near the center but darkness fell over the center of the cavern The Dwarf and ranger waded into the darkness and the wizard wishing to fire a fireball into the darkness about halfway into the cavern. Did he hit a stalagmite? Did he hit one of the two Ogres? Did he hit the Ranger or the dwarf? Or did he hit the square on the grid map I had drawn out (he was metagaming a little here) as he says he should be able to do? Another situation was the last one that just happened. The party found an illusionary wall. The wizard decided to go invisibly behind it and check it out. Just on the inside of the illusionary wall were two Gargoyles with wings that stretched up to the 10’ ceiling as they stood nearly 8’’ tall apiece. Another one was 30’ back beside a large hole that descended downward. The wizard backed out went to the center of the room and told the Cleric that there were Gargoyles behind the wall and then yelled it out to the spread out party as he then said I am hurling a fireball through the wall about 20’ back so that it gets the other one in the back so possibly he won’t escape. Again, does the Fireball explode on the Gargoyles that he cannot see or does it explode 20’ beyond the wall? This was crucial as to whether the alarm would be raised.

It is reasons like this that we still have issues with Fireball.

 

[Greenfield]

I think I'm getting what you're envisioning, and why we're seeing different things.

You're seeing a crowded dance floor, or an angry mob, people pressed together and in constant movement.

We're seeing a single row of people standing five feet apart, and behind them a row of very large people standing ten feet apart, also in constant motion.

You're equating this double row of people to an iron wall with a tiny hole, intermittently obstructed. I don't think that's a fair assessment.

Think of a football quarterback looking through the line, trying to find his receiver. He's got huge people in front of him, many waving their arms to try and obscure his vision and knock that pass down, others trying to break through and flatten him. Yet he gets that pass off far more often than he fails.

Okay, the opposing line isn't 8 feet tall and ten feet wide, but then nobody is standing in marked five and ten foot squares, with discrete space around them.

And since the Fireball can air-burst, the quarterback analogy is valid: He can pass over their line and still get the ball where he needs it.

They aren't a solid wall, they're people and monsters who need enough room around and between them to swing a sword or a club.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

If there is a hole in an iron wall to pass a spell out but a monster stands in front of the hole you cannot fire through it.

Assuming the creature is declared large enough to completely block that hole and in fact IS declared to be blocking it. Just because it's a big creature and a tiny hole it might not. But that determination would be largely up to a DM's judgement.

Secondly if the monster moves back and forth so that you only have partial view of the 12”x12” hole you would have an obstruction to this and possibly be considered less than 12”x12” so he is prohibited or does he still get to try and roll some modified roll?

Again, the rules don't care about movement. Either the hole is obstructed or it isn't and that's a DM's call. There aren't mechanics for making that kind of determination. If there's a 5' wide wall, with a 3' wide door, and a 12"x12" hole in that door, but a monster standing in the 5' square on the other side of that door - there isn't a rule that determines whether that creature IS or ISN'T blocking that hole in the door. Fireball has a specific reference to attempting to cast it through an arrow slit or "narrow passage". That is NOT meant to be a rule generally applied to a busy, confused battlefield. It means that in a 50 square foot wall - if there's a hole that's only 1 square foot you need to make a ranged touch attack to get it through it. Doesn't talk about people dancing in front of it. occupying the space in front of it, or the space 40' in front of it between the caster and the wall... etc. The rest of the time you'd just follow normal rules for targeting a spell. Now I may be getting those incorrect as I'm hardly a rules lawyer of 3.5 mechanics, but I'm pretty sure that if you're the DM and you believe there needs to be difficulties in targeting a Fireball added on for whatever reasons then that's your own lookout. The rules don't call for any special difficulties for it over and above any other spell.

Now say there is a solid door with a 12”x12” opening with 3 solid 1”w x 12”L iron bars in the opening thus reducing the availability to actually view through be 9”x9” is this still allowed to cast Fireball through or does it not now meet the 12” minimum?

What matters is what YOU say if you're the DM. The rules say nothing about it. For myself, yeah, as a DM I'd say that a 1 foot square opening needs to be AN OPENING. By definition, if there are substantive bars dividing that 12"x12" hole then it's NOT a 12"x12" hole - it's four 6"x6" holes and therefore does not qualify.

What if the party is at a wall and can see into a room down the shoot about 5’ long but it is 12”x12” opening. But in the middle is a fan blade that moves inside the shoot and in a 4 second sweep shows fully blocked during second 1, seconds 2 and 4 show partially blocked and second 3 shows unblocked.

Completely NOT covered by the rules. DM's should adjudicate as they see fit. Myself, I'd probably just assign a % chance that the spell is incorrectly timed, but maybe adjust that for the caster's dexterity, or level or something.

The mage fires from through a door window from 15’ away only to have it explode because there was a very clear window in it that his spot check did not reveal. Do you allow it to pass through?

To repeat, the fact that a fireball CAN detonate prematurely between caster and point of origin IS ABOUT the possibility of UNSEEN things.

A wizard fires a fireball to the other end of a passage thinking to take out 4 orc guards. Unfortunately, there is a large Ogre Brute who is invisible standing still waiting for the party to approach halfway between them and the orcs. Hmm, he takes up 4 squares of the hallway no way around and his head club near the ceiling with the wizard firing about 5’ off the floor which is about the widest point of the Ogre. Did he hit it or because he is not a totally solid obstacle do you rule he gets to fire it straight down even if the line of effect went straight down the middle of the hallway?

If the caster truly has line-of-effect (which is functionally equivalent to line-of-sight) to the point of origin then it gets to where the caster wanted it to go. Since the ogre is invisible, as DM I'd make the determination about line-of-effect, same as line-of-sight. To wit: draw an imaginary line between the caster's space and the target space. If the line is not blocked then the spell gets through. If the ogre blocks it then the spell impacts on the ogre and the fun begins. Given the description of the situation that sounds like it'd be the case.

I think we are trying to say if the target is obstructed from view part of the time it is harder to hit. If there is something in front of that spell that the wizard is unaware of, it becomes harder to hit.

Again, the rules have nothing to say about things being blocked "part of the time." It's either blocked or it isn't. There is either cover, or there isn't. A creature is either in the square or it isn't. If the DM insists that the situation is something not covered by those rules then it's the DM's position to decide how to handle that.

Actually I think that is what you are doing, by ignoring other rules and conditions.

What I am attempting to do is present the answer that the rules indicate - or to demonstrate that the rules simply do not HAVE an answer. If you determine that I've read and applied the rules incorrectly then good for you. Frankly, I'd personally be as likely to ignore RULES and just go with what seems sensible, because rules don't know or care about my game or the details of a given situation. They present defaults of what to do in as many COMMON situations as are reasonable to address. INEVITABLY, you'll either be forced to alter conditions to something the rules DO cover, or forced to supply your own rules to cover what the written rules don't.

While I agree with you that it does and doesn’t matter about moving around, I think the rules are clear you are.

And that's why I mentioned that in circumstances where the rules DO want to take into account movement for something, then they do. Flanking is changed from a physical POSITION to a CIRCUMSTANCE.

Firing through obstructions is a +4 to AC as explained by others above. This was a plausible explanation to use in targeting a given square.

Yes, however spells don't generally function by hitting AC. They function by either being successfully cast or completely disrupted, and then the consideration of a saving throw. Fireball has a special LIMITATION in that it requires clear line-of-effect to the point of origin or detonates prematurely. That's unusual. Most spells simply FAIL if there is a line of effect requirement. And it literally has a loophole! A square foot sized loophole that it can be cast through. That's 49 square foot out of 50 square feet can be SOLID WALL and you can still get that spell through (with a ranged touch attack). That's 98% solid wall. If it's 48 square feet out of 50... well it has nothing to really say about that specifically.

To compare innate objects like arrows and spells with the same intelligence as the Halfling or the Giant who is watching where they step or move and do not move in a straight pattern nor do they move through the solid body of the other or step on the solid body unless rolling for an attack, on the other is nonsensical.

It is meant as an indication that creatures just do not block as much of a space as many people seem to think they do (or want them to). I say that a size L, 4-square occupying creature still doesn't block 96% of it's squares and you can still get spells, arrows, and even tiny creatures past them without needing to leap through DM-specially-added hoops. As I read them, the rules say so too. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong. This isn't a matter of pride or one-upsmanship. I'm honestly trying to help.

There are still rules about moving through the ORC space even though I am moving and they are not according to your terms and attacks of opportunity are about me moving but they are not frozen I can attest.

Again, I believe I pointed out that where the rules DO want to take into account simultaneous movement they do so.

If you make it more mechanical rather than in the flow of the game in presenting challenges you could rule it that way.

The 3.5 rules are all about making it more mechanical. Pretty sure the intention was to ELIMINATE confusion and arguments about who is where, and "but he's MOVING AROUND the whole time...", and so forth.

I guess everyone makes their hide and move silent right. Since on there turn there is no movement of opponents or you are not moving when they make their listen checks on you, except their breathing?

No. A character's hide and move silent checks are generally made on the characters own turn. On other individuals turns in the initiative order, those results may be used in opposed checks or whatnot. If my PC comes across another character that was not ALREADY moving silently - and thus had already made the required OPPOSED check - then that character IS where it is, and is NOT moving silently. If I want to attack him then it does not matter where he was, where he's going, how fast he's moving, etc. He is where he is. My PC can then move into range to attack, if he is not in range already. Barring special abilities to act out of initiative the player of that other character doesn't get to object and say, "But I'm MOVING AROUND! In fact, I'm moving 100 times faster than you! There's no way you could possibly catch me!" The rules don't care. NEXT round that character can be out of range. THIS ROUND he's mine. That's simply how the rules work because it's easier than the alternatives.

Did he hit a stalagmite? Did he hit one of the two Ogres? Did he hit the Ranger or the dwarf? Or did he hit the square on the grid map I had drawn out (he was metagaming a little here) as he says he should be able to do?

Well the important answers to those questions have to be largely supplied by you. WAS there a stalagmite in the way or not? Was there line of effect or not? Was the caster to be permitted to accurately remember what he saw before the darkness came down or not? 3.5 uses squares and battlemats and so forth to eliminate those questions. When the DM lays out the battlefield, the locations of everything are obvious to everyone at the game table. If the player is allowed to see the battlefield, and then due to darkness part of that battlefield becomes hidden, how are you as DM supposed to FORCE a player to forget what HE saw? 3E would basically take the position that as long as the PLAYER can remember what was where then he gets to have his PC place a spell where he wants it for maximum effect. If the DM wanted to prevent that then maybe the DM needed a better plan for how the encounter was going to unfold.

Just on the inside of the illusionary wall were two Gargoyles with wings that stretched up to the 10’ ceiling as they stood nearly 8’’ tall apiece. Another one was 30’ back beside a large hole that descended downward. The wizard backed out went to the center of the room and told the Cleric that there were Gargoyles behind the wall and then yelled it out to the spread out party as he then said I am hurling a fireball through the wall about 20’ back so that it gets the other one in the back so possibly he won’t escape. Again, does the Fireball explode on the Gargoyles that he cannot see or does it explode 20’ beyond the wall? This was crucial as to whether the alarm would be raised.

Yep. He places it where he wanted to, even though he couldn't SEE it through the illusionary wall - unless things moved behind that wall, unseen, to be able to block line of effect. Assume that illusionary wall WASN'T there at all. Would he have been able to place it as desired? Sure. So then it should NOT impact on anything unexpected - unless between the time of having SEEN what was behind the wall to the time of when he actually cast the Fireball through it something moved that DID block line of effect - in which case it would hit that instead.