Spell Philosophy you would like to see

[Mokona]

Desired:

Other than damage, one roll per spell. Either to hit roll or saving throw but not both. And some spells (Magic Missile) can have neither a hit roll nor a saving throw.

Both vancian classes and similar non-vancian classes.

At-will attacks that don't completely suck for vancian classes.

Rituals that don't suck. Vancian rituals (i.e. non-combat spell slots per day) would better serve the game than expensive casting costs to learn and use 4e rituals. Gold is a poor way to balance the game because it's one of the key elements that varies by play style. A 100 gp pearl to cast identify in 3e was also odd; does that exist just to allow the DM to sneak in cursed items if the players are too cheap to cast the spell?

Non-combat spells. Utility spells. Logical spell effects on the environment (fire sets things on fire).

Spellcasting classes that don't completely obsolete the fighter and thief characters.

 

[Mattachine]

Spell effects should apply some common self-consistency, again the "Magic A is Magic A" idea.

So, if a spell affects creatures that make think, or simply make basic decisions based on perception (even a skeleton does this), then magic that alters that decision process or perception should work just fine.


P.S. Be careful of that TV Tropes link, above. If you follow, you might end up falling down the rabbit hole . . .

 

[Dausuul]

I want:

• No duration tracking in combat. Either use a save-ends mechanic like 4E, or just don't have durations between "1 round" and "5 minutes." Concentrating or using actions to sustain is also an option.
• No more than one roll to determine if the spell works or not (in other words, I agree with your "attack roll or saving throw, not both" rule).
• Spell disruption which can't be trivially circumvented by "casting defensively." This should be a real risk for arcane casters.
• Big scary spells with multi-round casting times, giving the enemy a chance to respond and disrupt. (If wizard players get bored, the spell could have a minor effect on the first couple rounds before delivering the kaboom.)
• Spells which don't inflict injury, don't deal damage. Magic missile should be a damaging spell. Fear should not. The non-damaging caster whose shtick is battlefield control should be a workable option.
• Very limited immunities and resistances; a being made of pure fire should be immune to fire damage, but there's no reason a red dragon needs to be. On the other hand, many monsters could be affected in different ways by certain effects. For instance, spells that deal necrotic damage might stun or control undead rather than damaging them.
• School specialization that strongly limits the caster's options, while being potent enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[Astrosicebear]

I want my vancian wizard or cleric to be able to prepare grease, or create water, or any of the other non combat utility spells, UNLESS they fix rituals.

If vancian casters get fewer (or even the same) number of slots per day as 3e, but also get to cast 'rituals' from their spellbook as a normal action, I am golden with that.

 

[billd91]

I want my vancian wizard or cleric to be able to prepare grease, or create water, or any of the other non combat utility spells, UNLESS they fix rituals.

If vancian casters get fewer (or even the same) number of slots per day as 3e, but also get to cast 'rituals' from their spellbook as a normal action, I am golden with that.

I can't help but think that 4e's utility magic/ritual system would have be improved with a 1-round casting version of each ritual coupled with a more full description of a full 10 minute casting time. Involved in a running battle and want to bar a door with magic? Cast an arcane lock for 1 round and it acts like a Hold Portal spell. Give it the 10 minute cast and it acts like the full arcane lock.

 

[Kingreaper]

Also, I think some categorical invulnerabilities would be ok. If the creature doesn't have a mind, I don't see why mind affecting spells would apply.

If you can name some truly mindless creatures, I might be persuaded.

Zombies? They want to eat people. They have a mind.

Golems? They will obey any order as best they understand it. They have a mind.

In order for something to behave like a creature while being mindless, it needs to be a puppet. Which means the puppetmaster is a reasonable target for mind-affecting stuff.

 

[NN]

Rule Of Thumb:

The non-magical , 'normal' way to achieve something permanent (get some iron, build a castle, make a sandwich, etc) must be signficantly cheaper than the magical way.

If its cheaper to cast a permanent Wall Of Iron than hire some miners and ironworkers, something is wrong

 

[Tony Vargas]

Without getting into system specifics, I think a general guideline to keep magic in line could be:

"Magic is always the hard way."

Magic is supernatural, but it also carries a price - in effort, consequences, resources, wealth, etc - that is heavier than any mundane way of accomplishing the same thing.

Hacking a troll to pieces and burning the body might take some rounds and 'cost' a fair amount of hp damage from the troll clawing and biting you. Immolating a troll with magic should be 'more costly' than that. Maybe due to 'drain' or the threefold law of return or something, the mage is fatigued or burned to a degree, himself?

It may be difficult to pick a lock (DC 20) or loud and difficult (DC 22) to break down a door, opening it magically might be loud, difficult (DC 29) and fatiguing.

 

[Andor]

Without getting into system specifics, I think a general guideline to keep magic in line could be:

"Magic is always the hard way."

Magic is supernatural, but it also carries a price - in effort, consequences, resources, wealth, etc - that is heavier than any mundane way of accomplishing the same thing.

Hacking a troll to pieces and burning the body might take some rounds and 'cost' a fair amount of hp damage from the troll clawing and biting you. Immolating a troll with magic should be 'more costly' than that. Maybe due to 'drain' or the threefold law of return or something, the mage is fatigued or burned to a degree, himself?

It may be difficult to pick a lock (DC 20) or loud and difficult (DC 22) to break down a door, opening it magically might be loud, difficult (DC 29) and fatiguing.

So .... what would be the point of magic then?

That's like trying to balance overpowered fighter types by replacing the weapons list with rubber chickens and squeaky hammers.

Each class should be fun to play. Each class should have a moment to shine.

Not all classes need to be equally fun for all players or at the same time.

No class, or approach to playing the game, should suck. If a player wants to self gimp by taking a Mage with an Int of 6 or a Fighter with no arms then there isn't much you can do. But the system should not say "Oh. You wanted to be a badass mage like Gandalf or Merlin? Too bad. Instead you shall wash Gollums socks."

 

[FireLance]

So .... what would be the point of magic then?

Speed. You can accomplish in seconds or minutes what would normally take hours or days.

Flexibility. You can do things that you normally would not be able to do because you lack the skill. You wouldn't want to do it often, and you wouldn't be as good as someone who was actually trained, but sometimes, your allies aren't around when you need them.

Coolness. What's not to like about changing reality with a few wierd words and strange gestures?