Spellfire Wielder feat - usable?

[jasamcarl]

Now to the Divine Champion

As my ealier post indicated, prcs are actually a BALANCING factor in certain cases by making some concepts viable within the rules, to an extent, the Divine Champion is one of them. By my count, a fighter who takes this prc will loose a net of one fighter feat. Not much when you look down the list of abilities and the will save huh? But consider that some of these abilities are cha dependent, a usual dump stat for most fighters. Now note that the that the prc is Five levels, the class level being a precondition for Lay on Hands along with Charisma. Now take a look at the BAB req..you won't be seeing this prc until 8th level...that healing is looking pretty minor....The smite ability is subject not just to the dm's choice of monsters, which have a sound mechanical basis as well as encounter charts to provide some degree of consistency, but to the DMs choice of his npc's PATRON DIETYs... a somewhat passive ability. Now take a look at the Weapon Focus requirement, right on target right? But the bonus feats provided do not allow weapon spec, a logical choice at this level for any fighter with weapon focus, because at this point the marginal benefit of taking on new 'feat chains' begins to decline, you now want power.

All in all, i would agree that the Divine Champion is marginally more powerful than would be a straight fighter, but i would challenge a fellow player to know the difference, or the dm for that matter. Balance is always a touchy standard, but this prc is in line with the core classes and far more on target then many(probably most) third party efforts. One has to imagine 'in-play' scenarios as oppossed to going 'jee-wiz' at listed abilities.

 

[Warchild]

Since I started this thread hijack: My apologies to those who want a discussion about spellfire.


Divine Champion & Guild Thief: OK, I haven't playtested these. But in all honesty, I see more fighters choosing butch classes like the OotBI, Weapon Master, or pretty much anything from OA (if they have access to it) over the Divine Champion.

Which doesn't mean the DC and GT aren't overpowered. The other prestige classes you mention, in particular the Weapon master has HELLACIOUS requirements. Don't get me started on a lot of those OA classes!!

Hierophant: This class is not the same as the archmage. It has NO SPELLCASTING PROGRESSION. Enough said.

Oops!! Slipped up on that one!
Although they do add for spellcaster level, so its not a total loss. One wonders why they didn't go the same route with Arch Mage?

 

[Warchild]

Re: Now to the Divine Champion

As my ealier post indicated, prcs are actually a BALANCING factor in certain cases by making some concepts viable within the rules, to an extent, the Divine Champion is one of them. By my count, a fighter who takes this prc will loose a net of one fighter feat. Not much when you look down the list of abilities and the will save huh? But consider that some of these abilities are cha dependent, a usual dump stat for most fighters. Now note that the that the prc is Five levels, the class level being a precondition for Lay on Hands along with Charisma. Now take a look at the BAB req..you won't be seeing this prc until 8th level...that healing is looking pretty minor....The smite ability is subject not just to the dm's choice of monsters, which have a sound mechanical basis as well as encounter charts to provide some degree of consistency, but to the DMs choice of his npc's PATRON DIETYs... a somewhat passive ability. Now take a look at the Weapon Focus requirement, right on target right? But the bonus feats provided do not allow weapon spec, a logical choice at this level for any fighter with weapon focus, because at this point the marginal benefit of taking on new 'feat chains' begins to decline, you now want power.

A loss of one feat, 3 cross skill points, and Weapon Focus feat(no loss really at all with Weapon Focus) in exchange for for the equivelent of cure light wounds 1'day, +2 saves vs divine magic (and spell like and supernatural abilities of outsiders.) - hello!!!, superior Fortitude saves, superior Reflex saves (why? who knows), and Smite Infidel 1/day. With no loss in combat ability or Hit Points. And Knowledge Religion and Spot, which may seem real minor, but most characters (not just fighters) would love to have that as a class skill. Overpowered according to my math. Overpowered in my campaign experience, too!

One has to imagine 'in-play' scenarios as oppossed to going 'jee-wiz' at listed abilities.

Thats a double edged sword. You can easily imagine a Fighter who didn't dump his Charisma score and a player who already has weapon specializtion by the time he reaches the 7 levels he needs to get the prestige class.
Smite ability affects everything but his own Dieties followers. How often is that likely to occur, attacking his gods people?



uhhh.....oh yeah, Spellfire!!
Uhm...overpowered Feat and underpowered Prestige class. Did i already say that??

 

[jasamcarl]

Yes, but......

At the level this prc comes into play cure light wounds and smight occupy a VERY minor place in the balance equation. You do realize we are speaking of the 8-12th level range correct? In that context, that extra feat(as well as the option to make it weapon spec) IS a considerable tradeoff, because either option will provide combat effects that either stack with previously invested feats(feat chains) or compliment those chains (Weapon Specialization, Improved Initiative). To most parties the ability to implement consistently high amounts of damage is more important that a singe sensational attack or power. The latter point is one of the subtle reasons i believe Spellfire is fine(if not underpowered, especially at higher levels). And to make some of these abilities even slightly appreciable, i high cha is a neccesity, and the tradeoff in a point-buy system between that and pretty much EVERY other stat is such a loss as to be laughable. And again the smite and higher saves for divine spells is subject to dm narrative discretion, and the rise in reflex saves is what, +2, +3, subject to a dex score that might very well have been compromised by a higher charisma? The extra class skills are even more passive than the core abilities.

Your points are reasonable, but i believe your critique is colored (and this is common) by a bias to magical, more romantic abilities over hard mechanical questions reality. Monte Cook noted this when analyzing the CRs of certain outsiders which he believed to be too high given their mediocre attack bonuses and hit points...

Probably my last post of the day, i enjoyed this though...

 

[Snofox]

I got nuttin....

sorry to say I have nothing to add to this, despite the fact that I am currently playing a char that has the spellfire weilder feat .

my post is just to commend jasamcarl...cudos...it is rare to see such an enlightened post in a thread regarding overpowered feats/classes. I look foward to seeing your perspective on other matters.



ok ok, I'll add my two bits about playing a char with the feat. In my experience there are two ways to play the game: by the numbers and by the words. By the numbers is just pure mechanics, just a big dice fest. By the words is the other end of the spectrum, where you might not roll a dice at all. Hopefully, everyone's games have a lil of each, but I think the difference in the two types is where alot of the "balance" question comes from. In the game I play in, we're pretty much "anything goes" [read: so unbalanced we don't even care ], and that is great for the group. I have oodles of fun. Do I think my char is balanced vs. anyone else's? I really don't care. It's never come up. If my char is overpowered, it's not cuz of that feat . Can the feat unbalance a game? Certainly. Anything can unbalance a game. A "smart" player can do tons of things with a mediocre character, let us "dumb" players have our fun with broken ones .

 

[Warchild]

Re: Yes, but......

At the level this prc comes into play cure light wounds and smight occupy a VERY minor place in the balance equation. You do realize we are speaking of the 8-12th level range correct? In that context, that extra feat(as well as the option to make it weapon spec) IS a considerable tradeoff, because either option will provide combat effects that either stack with previously invested feats(feat chains) or compliment those chains (Weapon Specialization, Improved Initiative). To most parties the ability to implement consistently high amounts of damage is more important that a singe sensational attack or power. The latter point is one of the subtle reasons i believe Spellfire is fine(if not underpowered, especially at higher levels). And to make some of these abilities even slightly appreciable, i high cha is a neccesity, and the tradeoff in a point-buy system between that and pretty much EVERY other stat is such a loss as to be laughable. And again the smite and higher saves for divine spells is subject to dm narrative discretion, and the rise in reflex saves is what, +2, +3, subject to a dex score that might very well have been compromised by a higher charisma? The extra class skills are even more passive than the core abilities.

Well chalk it up to a difference of opinion.
What stresses me (ok, not really) is that you keep using the lay on hands and smite infidel as passive gains, but when added the oteh Divine Champions other gains, the whole is certaintly not passive. Also i just don't think that 1 less feat inhibits a character from doing high amounts of damage, the character would end up with 10 feats instead of 11. I just don't think 2 feats and 6 skill points (assuming cross class) balances off against 2 feats, cure ability, smite ability, +2 vs divine magic (much better than any 1 feat....except maybe spellfire...hehe), and a total gain of an additional +3 Reflex save (again better than Lightning Reflexes). Now the extra feats, reflex save, and Divine resistance aside, the skills, lay on hands, and extra skills are passive, as you say. But then so, are the requirements for the prestige class. A prestige class with no drawbacks or real costs is a red flag...IMHO naturally!

Your points are reasonable, but i believe your critique is colored (and this is common) by a bias to magical, more romantic abilities over hard mechanical questions reality. Monte Cook noted this when analyzing the CRs of certain outsiders which he believed to be too high given their mediocre attack bonuses and hit points...

Monte has also criticised some CR's for being too low as well, because the combination of abilities that make some of the creatures much tougher than theit CR's and BAB/HD would indicate.

Probably my last post of the day, i enjoyed this though...

I have as well. Its nice for one for this discussions to actually remain civil for once!

 

[Warchild]

Re: I got nuttin....

ok ok, I'll add my two bits about playing a char with the feat. In my experience there are two ways to play the game: by the numbers and by the words. By the numbers is just pure mechanics, just a big dice fest. By the words is the other end of the spectrum, where you might not roll a dice at all. Hopefully, everyone's games have a lil of each, but I think the difference in the two types is where alot of the "balance" question comes from. In the game I play in, we're pretty much "anything goes" [read: so unbalanced we don't even care ], and that is great for the group. I have oodles of fun. Do I think my char is balanced vs. anyone else's? I really don't care. It's never come up. If my char is overpowered, it's not cuz of that feat . Can the feat unbalance a game? Certainly. Anything can unbalance a game. A "smart" player can do tons of things with a mediocre character, let us "dumb" players have our fun with broken ones .

Thats great!! Full steam ahead! You should always go with what works for you!
Let me restate that i have used both the Spellfire Feat and the prestige class. The roleplaying drawbacks DID balance it out for us. We don't run around our game table with an Abacus (sp?), ya know!. I am just saying the Forgotten Realms, every since 2E, has been a haven for power-ups and extremely powerful characters as the rule, rather than the exception. They are continuing that practice with 3E FR. The only difference is, so many others are doing the same these days!
Game on, people!

 

[jasamcarl]

Ok, ONE last response...

The drawback to this prc is essentially one feet for the benefits you yourself listed. Now that doesn't sound like an even trade, until you see that the balance was in the placement of along the 1-20 lvl section. My argument is that the key balancing factor for this prestige class is the +7BAB. How worthwhile is Lay on Hands at level 8? And Smite at 12th? Not very unless you have a high Cha, which under most circumstances entails a tradeoff in other stats, each one of which is preferable to Charisma. So we have a couple of meagre abilities which are made only barely potent by sacraficing an even greater amount of hp, damage cap, skills, etc... It doesn't help that the other variable that plays into their effect is class level, in a 5 level class.

Now the two benefits which are actually worth attention, i.e. the +3 ref and +2 saves to divine effects. The latter is heavily dependent upon DM fiat, but still a reasonable advantage given the number of divine effects you could find in the MM. Clear advantages on both ends. So how does the loss of one combat feat balance this?

Well lets look at what the confindent young min/max fighter would do as he is ascending the early levels. Most fighters find a hook, a niche. This involves investment in a feat chain. Now here is the subtle part. Most feat chains provide abilties which compliment each other, allowing for a rapid rise of tactical versatility for the fighter up until that chain is exhausted. Now it just so happens that most of the logical feat paths top out around level 8. how about that? This is the point where independent feats that compliment any given chain comes in. These include Improved Initiative and... Weapon Specialization!! Warchild, your comparison of the two above mentioned abilities to combat reflexes and the save boosters isn't very telling, because AT THIS LEVEL those feats are very weak. Weapon Spec, on the other hand, allows any oppurtunities offered by their feat chains to have a much larger payoff, sometimes allowing for near exponentialy higher damage over a given period of combat. Now of course a fighter could take weapon specialization at an earlier level, but that would require he commit two feats, weapon spec AND focus, both of which would have been better spend on any number of feats such as dodge, cleave, spirited charge, etc.. As the fighter enters the Divine Champion, he would very likely be struggling to complete that chain. As it is, he would at the very least have weapon focus, which is weak at this level range, just hanging their with not option to complete the logical prog to Weapon Spec. He who takes this class has to make another choice conscerning Improved Critical..Either way the feat situation is less than optimal.

And this is what it comes down. A +3 to the Relex save or +2 to divine effects are useful in a number of situations, but is it comparable to the constant combat use of a fighter feat prog, especially given the latter is very much active, often reducing the capabilities of the opposition even as it provides defense for the fighter? Now are all the Divine Champion's advantages worth this? Probably, but again you are overstating your case...

This class is actually expertly balanced, and i thank you for pointing it out...i admire Wotc r&d more and more

 

[Warchild]

Re: Ok, ONE last response...

Now the two benefits which are actually worth attention, i.e. the +3 ref and +2 saves to divine effects. The latter is heavily dependent upon DM fiat, but still a reasonable advantage given the number of divine effects you could find in the MM. Clear advantages on both ends. So how does the loss of one combat feat balance this?

Well lets look at what the confindent young min/max fighter would do as he is ascending the early levels. Most fighters find a hook, a niche. This involves investment in a feat chain. Now here is the subtle part. Most feat chains provide abilties which compliment each other, allowing for a rapid rise of tactical versatility for the fighter up until that chain is exhausted. Now it just so happens that most of the logical feat paths top out around level 8. how about that? This is the point where independent feats that compliment any given chain comes in. These include Improved Initiative and... Weapon Specialization!! Warchild, your comparison of the two above mentioned abilities to combat reflexes and the save boosters isn't very telling, because AT THIS LEVEL those feats are very weak. Weapon Spec, on the other hand, allows any oppurtunities offered by their feat chains to have a much larger payoff, sometimes allowing for near exponentialy higher damage over a given period of combat.

A +2 to save vs divine magic and outsider abilities certaintly isn'tweak at all. +3 to Reflex saves for a fighter type can be quite effective as well. Again, they are missing out one 1 feat ONLY, not necessarily Weapon Specialization. I don't know of a single feat that gives you +3 to Reflex saves and +2 to save vs divine/outsider magics. Those two abilities are worth 2-3 feats, i would say.

Now of course a fighter could take weapon specialization at an earlier level, but that would require he commit two feats, weapon spec AND focus, both of which would have been better spend on any number of feats such as dodge, cleave, spirited charge, etc..

Which is not anything other than your personal opinion here. Opinions vary, but many to most of the fighters i have seen have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization by 4th level. They are in no way wasted feats, and certainlty as good as Dodge, Cleave, and Spirited Charge. I don't see how you think they would be better spent on Dodge and Cleave.

As the fighter enters the Divine Champion, he would very likely be struggling to complete that chain. As it is, he would at the very least have weapon focus, which is weak at this level range, just hanging their with not option to complete the logical prog to Weapon Spec. He who takes this class has to make another choice conscerning Improved Critical..Either way the feat situation is less than optimal.

I don't think nearly so much the hardship you think it is. The only feat chain they are missing out on on completing is The Improved Critical chain, which they can get 1 level later. The could achieve the dodge-mobility-spring attack chain, the Mounted Combat-Trample-Spirited Charge chain, or the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave. This in addition to the Weapon Focus requirement of the class. Frankly i don't see the big struggle to complete any feat chains they might be interested in, in fact any of these could be completed by 4th level. The only thing they struggle against is Weapon Critical, which they cane get 1 level later than they would have if they stayed a Fighter.

And this is what it comes down. A +3 to the Relex save or +2 to divine effects are useful in a number of situations, but is it comparable to the constant combat use of a fighter feat prog, especially given the latter is very much active, often reducing the capabilities of the opposition even as it provides defense for the fighter? Now are all the Divine Champion's advantages worth this? Probably, but again you are overstating your case...

LOL! You call it overstating my case, i call it overwhelming evidence.
Lets look at it this way:
If the Fighter had stayed a fighter he would get these bonuses(8th-12th level fighter):
+5 Base Attack
+3 Fortitude
+2 Reflex
+2 Will save
10 Skill points
5D10 Hit points
3 Feats


What he gains those levels as a Divine Champion:

+5 Attack
+4 Fortitude
+4 Reflex Saves
+1 Will Save
10 Skill Points (plus the Knowlege-Religion and Spot skills)
5D10 Hit Points
2 Feats
-Lay of Hands - Heal 5+CHA bonus hit points per day.
-Sacred Defense - +2 vs Divine magic and outsider abilities
-Smite Infidel - a 1/day ability to add a +0-+5 attack/+5 damage attack against any creature not of his religion
-Divine Wrath - +3 to attack, Damage, and Saves, plus Damage Reduction 5/- for rounds equal to your Charisma Bonus!!!!!



The cost of all these extra abilities is Weapon Focus and 6 (almost certaintly 3 ranks cross classed) skill points. Weapon Focus is never a wasted feat for a fighter, although 6 skill points can be sticky if your not human or real dumb!!
Any character worth his spurs is going to make sure he has some Charisma bonus, because any points he spends on the stat(assuming you are even using the point system that is), no matter what the cost to his other stats, because the pay off from a higher charisma with this prestige class, WAY more than compensates for the other stat(s) he took away from.

I think if you walked to a fighter an said "hey pal, if you have the Weapon Focus, spend some skill points and give up a Feat, i'll give you an extra +2 to your saves, minor ability to heal yourself, ability to smite 1/day, +2 vs saves vs divine magic/outsider abilities, and Divine Wrath!! How about that?".
Not speak for anyone here, but i think most of them would say yes.

This class is actually expertly balanced, and i thank you for pointing it out...i admire Wotc r&d more and more

I'm glad you got something out of it!
We still don't agree at all, but it was a fun trip. Our point of views are just a little different is all.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Getting back to the spell fire wielder feat thread. I'd say it is not usable. Does it unbalance games, well apparently not in some games, then again I've seen games where the low stats on a character are 14, so balance in a campaign is very subjective. And besides that shouldn't be the question about a feat, does it unbalance the campaign, yeesh if that quesiton is even raised about a feat then you should know the feat has problems. The question about feats and balance should be about how it compares with other feats. Is it much better than other feats, a little better, same as, worse etc. And to me its clear this feat is much better than any other feat published by WOTC.

Can anyone name any other feat that comes even close to this feat in power and utility. Dodge, weapon focus certainly not, mobility, spring attack hah, whirlind attack, power attack, cleave please pathetic in comparison. Sure you have to actually use an action to absord spell energy, geez I'm sorry a feat doesn't give you the power of a 9th level spell all day, all the time. But even with that, limitation you still get ranged energy attacks, and healing power from a single feat. Even comparred to some of the overpowered feats in MoTW this feat is overpowered. Would you rather heal at x2 the natural rate, or be able to absord spell energy, and then heal at a comparable level to a cleric of moderate level, hhmmm that's a tough decision.