Spells dealing cold damage. effects?

[Greenfield]

Dozen, your argument presumes that magic is done through pacts and oaths, a premise not in any way supported by the rules. Sorcerers know magic simply because it's part of them. Wizards obtain it through study and knowledge. Clerics and Warlocks work through greater powers, but the majority of others don't require any such arrangement. The foundation of your case dissolves, leaving it unsupported.

That said, the rest of your analysis boils down to a hand wave, backed up by a certain amount of circular logic: The materials (many of which are essentially worthless) are taken as a sacrifice of something personal by the sentience of the universe, and removed from it to someplace that is "nothing", but they don't actually leave, they just become unavailable to you. Because losing access to that particular pinch of dust, bit of fleece or lump of sulfur is such a personal thing. And it has to work that way because physics applies, thus proving that physics applies. Sort of. Does that sort of sum it up?

Quantum physics presumes a multiple universe structure to work, and we're pretty sure that it does work, since computer chips kind of rely on it. But if those other universes can have different physical laws, then quantum physics wouldn't necessarily apply there, which means they wouldn't be accessible for quantum level interactions, which would mean... something terribly important I'm sure.

But as soon as you make an argument that presumes different physical laws, you are essentially saying that physics, as we understand it, doesn't have to apply in the game world. Which is where we started to disagree.

So, did you just walk your way around to agreeing with me?

 

[Dozen]

Dozen, your argument presumes that magic is done through pacts and oaths

ONE KIND. I said ONE KIND of magic is. What I gave you was an EXAMPLE. Why is saying so once not enough? How many times do I have to write one thing down to make it register for you?

Let's run through one of them in depth. Assume the magic in question

I said it twice in the same line! What else do you want from me?

a premise not in any way supported by the rules.

Tome of Magic is apparently not a thing then.

That said, the rest of your analysis boils down to a hand wave, backed up by a certain amount of circular logic: The materials (many of which are essentially worthless) are taken as a sacrifice of something personal by the sentience of the universe, and removed from it to someplace that is "nothing", but they don't actually leave, they just become unavailable to you. Because losing access to that particular pinch of dust, bit of fleece or lump of sulfur is such a personal thing. And it has to work that way because physics applies, thus proving that physics applies. Sort of. Does that sort of sum it up?

I do go out of my way to say this was a flawless argument. To counter a point I never made. See above.

But as soon as you make an argument that presumes different physical laws, you are essentially saying that physics, as we understand it, doesn't have to apply in the game world. Which is where we started to disagree.

So, did you just walk your way around to agreeing with me?

Look, what you want to convince me of is that what I present as physics in my games are not - which is painfully false, and not only for the fact that I am the DM of my own games. Now, those rules are derived from a number of presumtions that are not based on physics. Not only I agree with that, I'd be f*cking embarrassed have I ever fooled myself into thinking the basics didn't stem from random bits of pop culture and mythology somebody mashed together in their basement. That doesn't make the rules based on them illogical or contradictory in any way. And especially can't be explained away with "It's magic" for my kind of players. This I've also explained numerous times, and not just to you - Pemerton asked me the same question, and imagine, he read my posts, understood my answer, and didn't make any infuriating, baseless bullsh*t up about what my reasons must be. So maybe I'm not the one at fault here.

In the end, your arguments are obviously well thought out, but routinely ignore what I'm actually saying. Whether that's because I'm hard to understand, or you can't be bothered is a question for the ag-.... you know, I'm not even going to pretend that's a possibility anymore. Thing is, the depth of your analysis proves you're smart enough to get me despite my odd speech patterns, if they even surfaced in that particular part of the post. You don't miss what I'm telling you. You're simply being a d*ck.

So if you'd please put more effort into your replies, I'd be glad. You may even be right, but you'll never get anywhere with convincing me if you piss on my face in every corner.

To make clear this once and never again: My goal is to integrate physics save for the most basic parts of each sort of magic that simply has to be handwaved for it to qualify as magic. That may or may not work as intended, or shouldn't be called what I want to call it, and I'm willing to discuss the matter in a respectful manner. What I'm not willing to listen to anymore is whether that's what I want to do or not, and why do we, in your opinion, agree while our arguments have close to zero f*cks to do with each other thanks to you ignoring the point when you feel like it! You do any of those again, and I'm done talking to you! Clear?

 

[Greenfield]

Before I get into a reply, I'd like to apologize for the snark in my last post. It's a bad habit, one I should break. I'm sorry if it offended.

ONE KIND. I said ONE KIND of magic is. What I gave you was an EXAMPLE. Why is saying so once not enough? How many times do I have to write one thing down to make it register for you?

If you're argument cites a minority subset of the game world, it doesn't stand up well as a general position.

But I think I should back off from the entire approach of arguing general or even specific cases. That adds heat without light.

The reason that I say people shouldn't try to argue physics in a fantasy game is that they are implicitly trying to apply real world principles to situations that can't exist in the real world. The very concept of "magic" says that you're doing something outside of physics. I mean, no matter how you wriggle your fingers, or how hard you rub fleece on a glass rod, you aren't going to open an interdimensional portal to a place where there's enough free electrons bouncing around to channel the giga-watts of power needed to throw lighting a few hundred feet. And that doesn't even begin to address how you channel it so it goes where you want. There's a leap there that simply can't be accounted for in physics.

And don't even get me started on spells like Time Stop. Somehow time stops, or you are accelerated to near infinite speed for a short period. If you actually stop time for everyone but yourself, how do you see? Light wouldn't be reaching you, or would be so badly dopplered that you'd be effectively blind anyway. And what happened to your existing motion (recall planetary motion from the Hamster Cannon argument.) The planet stops, but you'd keep going, wouldn't you? And if the spell accelerates you to near infinite speed, how is it you can move normally through the air without generating a shock wave or fireball from your meteoric passage? And <gasp> you're able to start and stop your motion without employing near infinite amounts of energy, nor digging huge gouges in the ground as you struggle for traction.

That spell wreaks havoc on relativity, and a few dozen other physical laws.

But then, that's why they call it Magic, or if you prefer, "meta-physics". It means "Beyond physics", because it is.

Additionally, very few people have a good enough grasp of physics to apply the principles well. The Hamster Cannon argument highlights this, in that the DM in question was trying to apply physics only when it suited him, and ignored the (somewhat questionable) principle when it didn't.

Additionally, time spent doing math at the game table is time that tends to sap the energy of the moment from the game. Regardless of how good a mathematician you are, delays like that take away from play. I think you cited 30 seconds to calculate falling damage. That's thirty seconds of "dead air", when everyone is waiting for you and your calculator, possibly in the middle of a battle. Maybe your players are content with that. Most I know wouldn't be.

In your argument you fell back on the presence of entities outside our universe as an explanation for some magic. This entire approach presumes that these entities do the magic for the caster, under the terms of an agreement. But in terms of physics, all it really does is push the same question back one stage. It presumes that these entities can direct or reshape matter and energy in ways that physics can't account for. That they can cause a Lightning Bolt to leap towards an ungrounded object hundreds of feet in the air, for example, and ignore the well grounded earth only a few feet away. Electricity doesn't do that.

Even in Sci-fi games, it's a problem. The amount of power stored in the typical laser pistol power pack would have to be several times the output of the Niagra Falls generators, yet somehow there's never any cross-arcing between the terminals when it's not in use. How is that possible? The answer is "Suspension of disbelief." on the part of DMs and players, and "We never thought/worried about that" on the part of the authors. Without that, Han Solo would have been firing a six-shooter. (Ever wonder how a Jedi would parry a shotgun blast with his Light Sabre? )

Trying to apply real world physics to the game world is a bad fit. It's trying to account for impossible events using rules that describe, and are limited to, the possible. We can make an effort to keep things consistent with the way things work in the real world, but that's about it.

Hence my position that we end up settling for credibility. We can go a long way with math and physics, but at the game table it's simply a gesture to support and enforce credibility. It really is the best we're capable of.