Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare

[Azlan]

As a DM, I've always loved throwing bands of humanoids (e.g. goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears) against the player characters. As the PC's gain in level, the humanoids in these bands get even more numerous. Sure, the PC's usually cut through them fairly easily, especially once the PC's get to be 6th level and above (i.e. those PC's with a BAB of +6 or greater start getting two attacks per round; three, if they're wielding two weapons or if they're hasted).

However, recently a new player came into my latest campaign with a 6th level fighter who is equipped with a spiked chain and has the Great Cleave feat. This PC has proved to be a literal whirlwind of destruction when it comes to taking out bands of humanoids with 1-3 hit dice! To even get close enough to this PC to attack, a humanoid armed with, say, a scimitar or a battleaxe has to move within this PC's threatened area, which is a 10' radius all around her. This PC could already be surrounded by five humanoids, but when a sixth approaches her to attack, the PC gets an opportunity attack, and if that attack drops the approaching humanoid, the PC then gets a free attack against each of the five humanoids already engaged with her. (Is this correct? ) I once beheld this PC take out seven (!) humanoids, each with 12 hit points, in a single round, with her spiked chain and Great Cleave feat. (She took out four of those humanoids during her turn, and then another three due to an AoO, as another humanoid tried to move in, on her.) Only the group's wizard with a fireball spell can match this kind of slaughter of humanoids in a single round, but that PC is extremely limited by the number of times per day she can cast that spell.

To make matters worse, last game session I heard the fighter-player mention that she wants to get the Combat Reflexes feat. If she does this, she will be able to get a number of additional AoO's equal to her Dex bonus (which I think is +2, giving her three AoO's per round). With this combination of feats and a spiked chain, her PC will totally discourage me from throwing bands of humanoids against the group. (Yes, I could simply increase the hit dice of the humanoids, thereby making it more difficult for the fighter PC to drop each of them and thus get Cleave attacks, but increasing the hit dice of the humanoids would be overwhelming and unfair to the rest of the PC's in the group.)

I notice in the rules that a whip, which is a melee weapon with a 15' reach, has a limitation that a spiked chain does not, even though the two weapons are similar in form. I'm wondering if, a.) if we're playing out the rules for a spiked chain & Great Cleave, correctly (particularly when it comes to AoO's); and b.) if maybe I should "house" rule it, that a wielder of a spiked chain does not threaten his surrounding area, just as a wielder of a whip does not threaten his surrounding area (due to the fact that that the wielder of a spiked chain can't continuously swing it around, without interruption, just as a wielder of a whip can't continuously snap it).

 

[Wolfwood2]

To make matters worse, last game session I heard the player of this character mention that she wants to get the Combat Reflexes feat. If she does this, she will be able to get a number of additional AoO's equal to her Dex bonus (which I think is +2, giving her three AoO's per round). With this combination of feats and a spiked chain, her PC will totally discourage me from throwing bands of humanoids against the group. (Yes, I could simply increase the hit dice of the humanoids, thereby making it more difficult for the fighter PC to drop each of them and thus get Cleave attacks, but increasing the hit dice of the humanoids would be overwhelming and unfair to the rest of the PC's in the group.)

I notice in the rules that a whip, which is a melee weapon with a 15' reach, has a limitation that a spiked chain does not, even though the two weapons are similar in form. I'm wondering if, a.) if we're playing out the rules for a spiked chain + Great Cleave, correctly (particularly when it comes to AoO's); and b.) if maybe I should "house" rule it, that a wielder of a spiked chain does not threaten his surrounding area, just as a wielder of a whip does not threaten his surrounding area (due to the fact that that the wielder of a spiked chain can't continuously swing it around, without interruption, just as a wielder of a whip can't continuously snap it).

a) You're playing the rules correctly.

b) No, you shouldn't house rule it. Great Cleave is considered to be pretty weak sauce as a feat around these parts. The reason is that few DMs bother throwing mobs of low-HD humanoids at PCs. If a PC is actually getting some glory with that feat, great for them!

I suggest you simply increase the number of humanoids. Ever wanted to throw a truly awesome horde at the PCs? I'm not talking a mere dozen or so. I'm talking 100 orcs on the battlefield, and banners of reinforcements showing just over the crest of the hill. Well, now's your chance.

While spiked-chain cleave god is single-handedly taking down an army, his companions can go after the army's commander.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The trick, you see, is that Great Cleave is only effective if each hit downs an opponent. Sure, if you're throwing enemies at your PCs that can all be killed in a single hit, they're going to die quite easily, won't they? You're specifically targetting players with Cleave and/or Great Cleave and giving them a benefit by doing so. By putting huge hordes of enemies against the PCs, all with 1-3 hit dice, you're specifically letting the Spiked Chain-Great Cleave fighter do what he's good at. If you're specifically letting him do what he's good at, why would you seek to penalize him for doing so?

My suggestion is that you stop throwing such large numbers of low-HD enemies at them. Either do something about that (such as increasing their HP to the point where they can't all be taken out in one hit, but possibly reduce their numbers, or have them all use reach weapons), or just accept that that's where the Fighter is going to shine the most. Don't penalize a player for doing what's best in a given situation. If you don't like the situation, you're the DM- you can easily change the situation.

 

[Azlan]

The trick, you see, is that Great Cleave is only effective if each hit downs an opponent. Sure, if you're throwing enemies at your PCs that can all be killed in a single hit, they're going to die quite easily, won't they? You're specifically targetting players with Cleave and/or Great Cleave and giving them a benefit by doing so. By putting huge hordes of enemies against the PCs, all with 1-3 hit dice, you're specifically letting the Spiked Chain-Great Cleave fighter do what he's good at. If you're specifically letting him do what he's good at, why would you seek to penalize him for doing so?

My suggestion is that you stop throwing such large numbers of low-HD enemies at them. Either do something about that (such as increasing their HP to the point where they can't all be taken out in one hit, but possibly reduce their numbers, or have them all use reach weapons), or just accept that that's where the Fighter is going to shine the most. Don't penalize a player for doing what's best in a given situation. If you don't like the situation, you're the DM- you can easily change the situation.

You say I shouldn't "penalize" the fighter PC for something she is particularly good at. But what if she's too good at it? What if, in comparison to the other PC's in the group, she's so good at it – effortlessly and endlessly so – that it soon becomes rote for her, and thus becomes boring for the DM and the group? Well, then, as DM, I have to either reduce the number of encounters involving bands of humanoids (if not do away with them altogether), or I have to increase the hit dice of each of the humanoids in those bands.

I see two problems with increasing the HD of these opponents...

1.) I'm increasing the difficulty of the entire combat encounter specifically for this particular fighter PC, not for the group as a whole.

2.) It will prove to be overwhelming and unfair to the other PC's, who aren't armed with a spiked chain & Great Cleave combo.

Why not instead, impose the same limitation on a spiked chain that is imposed on a whip, i.e. the wielder of either weapon does not continuously threaten the surrounding 10' or 15' area? I wouldn't see this as penalizing one particular player's choice of weapon and feat(s), so much as I would see it as placing a realistic limitation on a fantastical and over-powerful weapon.

 

[Azlan]

Great Cleave is considered to be pretty weak sauce as a feat around these parts. The reason is that few DMs bother throwing mobs of low-HD humanoids at PCs.

Yes, I know. Which is probably why few (if any) DM's here have complained about the combination of spiked chain & Great Cleave.

 

[Bagpuss]

a) You're playing the rules correctly.

No he isn't.

This PC could already be surrounded by five humanoids, but when a sixth approaches her to attack, the PC gets an opportunity attack, and if that attack drops the approaching humanoid, the PC then gets a free attack against each of the five humanoids already engaged with her. (Is this correct?)

No you get one attack at one target, if you happen to drop them, then you get another attack at another target, if you also drop them, you get another attack at another target, etc...

If you fail to drop a target then you stop getting extra attacks. You do not automatically get a free attack at all the others.

 

[phindar]

Yeah, Great Cleave doesn't give you a free Whirlwind Attack. (Although, she should really be building towards WA.) Also, Enlarge Person is a nice first level buff, it'll double her threatened area and she'll be doing more damage.

If the pcs are getting swarmed by humanoids that have low enough ACs that they almost never miss, and so few hit points that an attack drops them, then Great Cleave is a really great feat to have. But that's really situational. Basically, Great Cleave let's you wipe out the mooks that aren't that much of a threat anyway.

 

[Darklone]

No, it's not too strong. One fireball should do the same.

Take a look at an enlarged bbn1/scout5 at that level with a chain with Imp Skirmish plus the Cleave chain (human for Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave). Soo he charges into the middle of a bunch of humanoids ... picking a target that allows him to have all others in his reach. 2d4+9 (puny str of 18 with rage) +4d6 skirmish damage. He might have wasted another feat (scouts do get bonus feats) for Powerful charge for another 2d6 or 3d6 IIRC. Since he's charging, a -2 to hit for Power Attack might be ok.

That's 2d4+13+6d6 for averaged 39 points of damage in an effective 20ft radius spread.

Next round nearly the same (without charge), then he tumbles/moves away 20ft. Enemies without reach usually won't get a full attack action against him.

Don't worry about the 3HD humanoids, worry about the CR6 bodyguards of the BBEG. Usually they won't survive two of these rounds.

 

[Darkwolf71]

No he isn't.



No you get one attack at one target, if you happen to drop them, then you get another attack at another target, if you also drop them, you get another attack at another target, etc...

If you fail to drop a target then you stop getting extra attacks. You do not automatically get a free attack at all the others.

Correct. This is how Great Cleave works. Your fighter will still take out mad amounts of low-HP creatures, but not so bad as currently.

Also, use tactics for your hordes. After witnessing the whirling-chain-o-death, have your goblins or whatever fall back and break out the bows. Your fighter has no choice but to close the distance, (to 10', I'm sure) then your monsters simply have to 5' step in to make their attacks.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Also, use tactics for your hordes. After witnessing the whirling-chain-o-death, have your goblins or whatever fall back and break out the bows.

Heck, if I saw something that ripped into my unit's line and killed a half dozen people with one swing, I'd probably run.

Also, remember, there's a limit to the tactics blood-crazed orc berserkers or terrified goblins can come up with. Maybe a couple would plink away with bows, if they had them, but most would either try and charge or retreat.

I could see some decently disciplined/motivated troops standing off and using missile weapons, like hobgoblins, but not your run of the mill horde type.

Brad