Spiked Shield issues

[karossii]

I was working with a friend to create a character for a game he is entering. It is a home game, more or less LFR rules but not 100% restrictive, DM exceptions are being allowed in certain areas.

I suggested a Githyanki Shielding Swordmage wielding a spiked shield as his primary/only weapon.

First, Githyanki was not allowed, this was fine, I wasn't certain it would be.

But then the DM has two other issues with the build. First he claims a spiked shield is either a weapon or a shield, never both. I understand he is correct in regards to enchantments - it is specifically stated that you cannot enchant it as both a shield and a weapon, only one or the other (which in the character builder, you cannot enchant it as a shield for some reason). But his argument is somewhat supported by the fact that nowhere does it claim you actually get any shield bonus or defensive bonus for wielding a spiked shield. It is not listed as a defensive weapon (a good thing for a swordmage who wants one hand free), but while the description states it is a light shield, it nowhere indicates you gain the benefits of wielding a light shield.

My primary argument against this is somewhat weak, beyond what I think should be common sense, and that is the Character Builder Known Issues post which states; "Spiked shield functions as a weapon but does not properly also function as a shield." (emphasis mine)

Second (err, third?) he claims that swordmage cannot wield a spiked shield, even as his only weapon/implement, and retain his +3 swordmage warding armor class bonus. I can see where he is inferring this, but it sees an awful reach to come at that conclusion - in my opinion he just doesn't like the flavor and is grasping at straws to disallow it. The text he is inferring this from is;

SWORDMAGE WARDING
While you are conscious and wielding either a light blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical force around you.
This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).
If you become unconscious, your Swordmage Warding benefit disappears. You can restore it by taking a short rest or an extended rest.

(emphasis mine... err, his)

It is clearly talking about having a shield in the 'other hand' while 'one hand' is holding a light or heavy blade. I feel this is such a stretch I am offended by it, I would rather just have him say he doesn't want to allow the concept.

But my friend doesn't want to push anything, or argue with the DM in any way (the DM is a friend of his, only an acquaintance of mine), so the character is out... I am still left with the nagging desire to argue with this DM over this.

I know that in a home game, the DM is always right - I have no issue with that aspect. But if it is a case of him houseruling it, I want him to say so, not try to bend and stretch the rules so that they just work that way. But I can't really say anything to him, because it isn't my character in question.

But the reason I am posting here, other than to just vent frustration... Am I misunderstanding anything?Does a spiked shield NOT provide light shield bonuses to AC and Reflex while being wielded as a weapon? Does Swordmage Warding exclude spiked shields?

 

[Dalzig]

3. This weapon is combined with a light shield. See description.

The spiked shield is a light shield. It provides the bonuses a light shield does, providing that you are proficient with light shields. It works as both a weapon and a light shield at the same time.

The Swordmage Warding also fully functions with a spiked shield. You are wielding a blade in one hand with nothing in the other hand. Therefore, you get the +3 bonus in addition to the +1 bonus from the shield.

 

[Flipguarder]

On a related note, is there any way to use a spiked shield as an implement. Because that could be awesome.

 

[Dalzig]

On a related note, is there any way to use a spiked shield as an implement. Because that could be awesome.

Um... be a Swordmage... They use blades as implements and the spiked shield is an light blade.

Alternatively, take Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blades) from Arcane Power.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Basically this is one of those situations where you can maul the plain meaning of the rules if you want to be a putz and exclude something. Not much you can do with this sort of DM. Frankly I'd be hesitant to play in that game. It rather sounds like anything that isn't stock vanilla stuff is just going to get the ban hammer.

It would be one thing if this was some sort of cheese build, but it isn't like a spiked shield is anything extra special. You could wield a parry dagger and all it would do is lower your damage output slightly and forfeit 1 point of reflex defense. So obviously you're gaining a small advantage, but at the cost of using a d6 damage die vs wielding a bastard sword for d10 and the option to use both hands and grip shift cheese.

 

[karossii]

actually, the surprising this is that I am already playing in the game, and the DM has been fairly lenient. Granted I only had one 'questionable' rules item, which I was more than willing to swap out if he didn't agree (he is allowing a zulaat to have reach - since the PHB states all polearms are reach weapons; had he not I would have switched to a glaive). And in game play, he is very accomodating and fun. or some reason this struck a nerve with him or something... no idea! But it is very frustrating to me!

As to a parrying dagger (or cutting wheel) - both are defensive weapons and only grant the bonus if you have two weapons, which negates the +3 from swordmage warding. The single spiked shield is the only way to really pile on the AC bonus.

 

[Panthine]

Damn i wish i had have thought of this cheese for my HUMAN ARTIFICER
Feat 1 Acane implement (light blades)
Feat 2 Light shield proficiency
Feat 3 Spiked shield proficiency

To get +1AC and +1 REF and LOWER my (W) damage.

Wait now i think some more...

LOL

I know the char builder ONLY uses spike shields as a weapon - ive been waiting for the fix to the rules allowing twin spiked shields one offensive and one defensive but i guess not enough ppl want that.

As is you can even twin wield normal shields - i know this is not "OPTIMAL" i just think it is cool, and am sick of making houserules for it.

 

[Diirk]

Basically this is one of those situations where you can maul the plain meaning of the rules if you want to be a putz and exclude something. Not much you can do with this sort of DM. Frankly I'd be hesitant to play in that game. It rather sounds like anything that isn't stock vanilla stuff is just going to get the ban hammer.

It would be one thing if this was some sort of cheese build, but it isn't like a spiked shield is anything extra special. You could wield a parry dagger and all it would do is lower your damage output slightly and forfeit 1 point of reflex defense. So obviously you're gaining a small advantage, but at the cost of using a d6 damage die vs wielding a bastard sword for d10 and the option to use both hands and grip shift cheese.

Idunno I agree with the DM personally. If I was DMing, I'd say something along the lines of "Ok, I agree by the rules this is legal, but..." and then hit him over the head with a rules book (well, ok not really).

Its pretty clear swordmage warding is an improved replacement for a shield, and you're not really meant to get both at once ...

 

[RCanine]

But the reason I am posting here, other than to just vent frustration... Am I misunderstanding anything?Does a spiked shield NOT provide light shield bonuses to AC and Reflex while being wielded as a weapon? Does Swordmage Warding exclude spiked shields?

Not by my reading. Besides, in order to get the shield bonus to defenses, proficiency bonus to weapon attacks and your swordmage bonus you would need to take two feats:

• Light Shield Proficiency
• Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Shield)

There are two other ways to get +1 AC: Hide Armor and Improved Swordmage Warding. All of these have similar stat requirements and don't lock you into a single weapon type (light blade). In other words, it's pretty balanced, so I don't see any issue with allowing it, even though it's not the design intention of the swordmage.

As is you can even twin wield normal shields - i know this is not "OPTIMAL" i just think it is cool, and am sick of making houserules for it.

Since the shield bonus to AC & Reflex is typed, wielding two shields would have no benefit over wielding one, and the armor penalty for wielding two heavy shields would stack, so this is really just silly.

 

[Tai]

Also, it says in the description of the spiked shield that a character cannot use two shields at the same time ^^;;