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Spirits- what can they do, and what can be done to them
- Thread starter Lauberfen
- Start date
chaotix42
First Post
I just came to make a thread about spirit companions - not this exact topic but I figured I'd just post here instead of starting another one.
For starters, check out the Conjuration keyword. This will answer a few questions such as what terrain hinders a spirit and whether it can hover. No "terrain or environmental phenomena" have an effect on conjurations (though they cannot move through solid objects). Also, conjurations do not need to be supported by a surface so they can float in the air. In general a shaman wants his companion adjacent to his allies, but the possibilities are interesting.
Unless an attack specifically affects a conjuration (with a condition) only the attack's damage affects the conjuration. So no prone spirits, unless somehow an attack knocks spirits prone.
Now what about when you get the Nimble Spirit feat? This allows you to use call spirit companion as a free action. Seems like you can summon your spirit companion at a distance, attack through it, unsummon it, resummon it next to your allies where it's safer & grants them benefits... seems pretty flexible. I'm making up a 16th lvl deva stalker spirit shaman on the CB and I like what I'm seeing so far!
For starters, check out the Conjuration keyword. This will answer a few questions such as what terrain hinders a spirit and whether it can hover. No "terrain or environmental phenomena" have an effect on conjurations (though they cannot move through solid objects). Also, conjurations do not need to be supported by a surface so they can float in the air. In general a shaman wants his companion adjacent to his allies, but the possibilities are interesting.
Unless an attack specifically affects a conjuration (with a condition) only the attack's damage affects the conjuration. So no prone spirits, unless somehow an attack knocks spirits prone.
Now what about when you get the Nimble Spirit feat? This allows you to use call spirit companion as a free action. Seems like you can summon your spirit companion at a distance, attack through it, unsummon it, resummon it next to your allies where it's safer & grants them benefits... seems pretty flexible. I'm making up a 16th lvl deva stalker spirit shaman on the CB and I like what I'm seeing so far!
NorthSaber
First Post
chaotix42 pretty much covered what I was going to reply, and I agree.
I think one of the most interesting questions is whether the spirit companion is considered a creature. If it is, enemies might be able to OA it, and it might be able to flank an enemy - or be flanked! CS answers seem to point that this is true. (I'll also ask my DM if we can run my spirit companion like this, since it makes it a little bit more "real".)
At the moment, however, RAW seem to state that a conjuration is not in fact a creature, and thus doesn't provoke OAs, and cannot flank or be flanked.
Other interesting notes about the spirit companion:
- Even though it shares your defenses, it doesn't seem to get your resistances, and takes full damage of the attacks it is susceptible to. Also, if your spirit companion dies, it seems that you take unnamed damage, so element-specific resistances won't help.
- Since a spirit companion occupies a square, it also provides cover. I'm not sure whether the cover also hinders allies' attacks vs. enemies, since the spirit companion isn't technically an ally. (I think.)
- Since the spirit companion is unaffected by conditions and other non-damaging enemy effects, it also seems to be unaffected by bonuses granted by the PCs' powers. Until it is confirmed that the spirit companion is indeed a creature, no power or zone can grant it bonuses.
- When attacking through your spirit companion, you get your normal implement bonuses for the attack and damage. If you have the feat Back to the Wall, that bonus would also seem to apply, since all spirit attacks are considered melee attacks.
Please correct me if any of these are incorrect! I'll add more later if I forgot something.
I think one of the most interesting questions is whether the spirit companion is considered a creature. If it is, enemies might be able to OA it, and it might be able to flank an enemy - or be flanked! CS answers seem to point that this is true. (I'll also ask my DM if we can run my spirit companion like this, since it makes it a little bit more "real".)
At the moment, however, RAW seem to state that a conjuration is not in fact a creature, and thus doesn't provoke OAs, and cannot flank or be flanked.
Other interesting notes about the spirit companion:
- Even though it shares your defenses, it doesn't seem to get your resistances, and takes full damage of the attacks it is susceptible to. Also, if your spirit companion dies, it seems that you take unnamed damage, so element-specific resistances won't help.
- Since a spirit companion occupies a square, it also provides cover. I'm not sure whether the cover also hinders allies' attacks vs. enemies, since the spirit companion isn't technically an ally. (I think.)
- Since the spirit companion is unaffected by conditions and other non-damaging enemy effects, it also seems to be unaffected by bonuses granted by the PCs' powers. Until it is confirmed that the spirit companion is indeed a creature, no power or zone can grant it bonuses.
- When attacking through your spirit companion, you get your normal implement bonuses for the attack and damage. If you have the feat Back to the Wall, that bonus would also seem to apply, since all spirit attacks are considered melee attacks.
Please correct me if any of these are incorrect! I'll add more later if I forgot something.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think you are pretty much correct. Note that while a spirit companion cannot apparently benefit from buffs to IT, it can benefit from all buffs to the caster, and debuffs too, so your warlord can buff the companion by buffing you. Likewise if you suffer a penalty, the companion suffers an equal penalty.
Spirit companions grant cover to allies, but not to enemies, just like allies do. Flanking is an open question, and so is being subject to an OA. WRT OAs the spirit companion does not strictly speaking HAVE any attack capability of its own (no melee basic attack power), but the shaman has powers which can basically give it the equivalent of an OA.
Note also that spirit companions are not affected by blast or burst attacks, only by ranged or melee attacks.
Finally note that nimble spirit allows you summon the spirit as a free action, but dismissing it is still a minor action.
Spirit companions grant cover to allies, but not to enemies, just like allies do. Flanking is an open question, and so is being subject to an OA. WRT OAs the spirit companion does not strictly speaking HAVE any attack capability of its own (no melee basic attack power), but the shaman has powers which can basically give it the equivalent of an OA.
Note also that spirit companions are not affected by blast or burst attacks, only by ranged or melee attacks.
Finally note that nimble spirit allows you summon the spirit as a free action, but dismissing it is still a minor action.
chaotix42
First Post
Thanks Abdul, you're right about dismissing it as a minor. I was slightly disturbed by the possibilities until you pointed that out.
I would say that spirit companions don't normally flank, otherwise the at-will Stalker's Strike would be rather pointless. I also think that spirit companions provoke OAs when they move since they can be targeted by melee attacks.
Also, North Saber, Back to the Wall would work as far as I can tell - spirit powers are melee afterall. I took it for my character!
I would say that spirit companions don't normally flank, otherwise the at-will Stalker's Strike would be rather pointless. I also think that spirit companions provoke OAs when they move since they can be targeted by melee attacks.
Also, North Saber, Back to the Wall would work as far as I can tell - spirit powers are melee afterall. I took it for my character!
NorthSaber
First Post
Good catch! This is peculiar - they have some features of allies, but some features of creatures, and in some ways they're neither.
If they're considered allies, they should provide flanking - which they don't.
If they're considered non-allied creatures, they shouldn't allow allies to pass - which they do - and should provide cover for enemies as well - which they don't.
If they're considered non-creatures, enemies wouldn't get OAs against them - which they do. Apparently. (Although this last case has only been confirmed by CS, and not actual FAQ or errata.)
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DracoSuave
First Post
Some clarifications.
The spirit doesn't track damage, and doesn't have hit points. Instead, if it takes over a certain amount of damage in one hit, it is destroyed, similiar to a minion. You only take damage IF it is destroyed in this manner.
The spirit does -not- block line of sight, nor line of effect, nor is it cover in any way. Conjurations are not cover by default, and the spirit conjuration does nothing to change that.
The spirit does not flank because it is not a creature, unless you have a power that allows it to.
The spirit does not provoke opportunity attacks because it is not a creature, and it never takes move actions anyways. An opportunity attack is not a power, and does not explicitly target conjurations or zones. Neither can class features that are not powers affect a spirit companion.
Any temporary adjustments to your attacks and defenses -do- apply to the spirit companion.
The spirit companion is not affected by anything that isn't damage, and can only be targeted by melee and ranged attacks. EXCEPTION: Effects that explicitly affect conjurations (like Dispel Magic or Spirit Call) or that explicitly affect spirit companions (like Wrath of Winter) will affect a spirit companion just fine and with full effect.
A spirit companion cannot be given free attacks by a warlord, nor can it be moved by a warlord's powers, because it cannot be affected by non-damage effects. If, however, the warlord gives you actions, you can use those to use your powers as normal, which may or may not involve Spirit powers.
Any move action you take will permit you to move the spirit companion. This includes walk, run, shift. The spirit companion does not take a move action to do this, it simply moves those spaces. This movement works -exactly- like moving a flaming sphere or any other conjuration and uses the -exact- same terminology. The movement must remain within 20 squares of you, or else the conjuration ends.
When you die, the spirit companion goes away.
When applying a question to a spirit companion, always remember Specific beats General:
First, use the rules for the effects of powers...
...unless the rules for Conjurations override them....
...unless the rules for Call Spirit Companion overrides that...
...unless the rules for the specific Spirit power you're using overrides that.
Work your way up the hierarchy.
For example:
Does the spirit companion trigger OAs?
First: Do the effects of powers themselves trigger OAs? No. That's silly. Fireballs can't take OAs. But wait...
Second: Do conjurations themselves trigger OAs? Nothing specific beats the general here, so...
Third: Do Spirit Companions trigger OAs? Nothing specific beats general here... so we apply the general rule.
Another example of SbG:
Do -Summonings- trigger OAs?
1) Do power effects trigger OAs? No. But...
2) Summonings are creatures. Creatures DO trigger OAs. Therefore, specific beats general, and therefore Summonings -can- trigger OAs.
See? It's not hard.
The spirit doesn't track damage, and doesn't have hit points. Instead, if it takes over a certain amount of damage in one hit, it is destroyed, similiar to a minion. You only take damage IF it is destroyed in this manner.
The spirit does -not- block line of sight, nor line of effect, nor is it cover in any way. Conjurations are not cover by default, and the spirit conjuration does nothing to change that.
The spirit does not flank because it is not a creature, unless you have a power that allows it to.
The spirit does not provoke opportunity attacks because it is not a creature, and it never takes move actions anyways. An opportunity attack is not a power, and does not explicitly target conjurations or zones. Neither can class features that are not powers affect a spirit companion.
Any temporary adjustments to your attacks and defenses -do- apply to the spirit companion.
The spirit companion is not affected by anything that isn't damage, and can only be targeted by melee and ranged attacks. EXCEPTION: Effects that explicitly affect conjurations (like Dispel Magic or Spirit Call) or that explicitly affect spirit companions (like Wrath of Winter) will affect a spirit companion just fine and with full effect.
A spirit companion cannot be given free attacks by a warlord, nor can it be moved by a warlord's powers, because it cannot be affected by non-damage effects. If, however, the warlord gives you actions, you can use those to use your powers as normal, which may or may not involve Spirit powers.
Any move action you take will permit you to move the spirit companion. This includes walk, run, shift. The spirit companion does not take a move action to do this, it simply moves those spaces. This movement works -exactly- like moving a flaming sphere or any other conjuration and uses the -exact- same terminology. The movement must remain within 20 squares of you, or else the conjuration ends.
When you die, the spirit companion goes away.
When applying a question to a spirit companion, always remember Specific beats General:
First, use the rules for the effects of powers...
...unless the rules for Conjurations override them....
...unless the rules for Call Spirit Companion overrides that...
...unless the rules for the specific Spirit power you're using overrides that.
Work your way up the hierarchy.
For example:
Does the spirit companion trigger OAs?
First: Do the effects of powers themselves trigger OAs? No. That's silly. Fireballs can't take OAs. But wait...
Second: Do conjurations themselves trigger OAs? Nothing specific beats the general here, so...
Third: Do Spirit Companions trigger OAs? Nothing specific beats general here... so we apply the general rule.
Another example of SbG:
Do -Summonings- trigger OAs?
1) Do power effects trigger OAs? No. But...
2) Summonings are creatures. Creatures DO trigger OAs. Therefore, specific beats general, and therefore Summonings -can- trigger OAs.
See? It's not hard.
DracoSuave
First Post
Yes.
No, because prone is a condition, and conjurations cannot suffer conditions.
Yes, because conjurations ignore terrain in all ways.
Unless the attack -explicitly- targets a conjuration or a spirit companion, yes.
Conditions are non-damage effects. Conjurations ignore them. Spirit Companions ignore them X 2.
NorthSaber
First Post
I have a question about this. I know that none of the three "checkpoints" mention cover in any way, but they do mention that the spirit companion occupies a square. Even though it is not an ally, it does block enemy movement, so does this qualify the spirit companion as an obstacle? Because it it does, p. 280 in the PHB would indicate that PCs can gain cover from the spirit companion, while enemies could not.
Also, some might argue that based on the description entry of conjuration, all conjurations are either magical conjurations, objects or creatures, and in the case of creatures, they would be subject to all creature-related rules, like flanking and OAs. But I suppose if it's not in the "brown box", it's just flavor text.
DracoSuave
First Post
1) Obstructions are terrain features. If a conjuration acts as an obstruction, it'll say so in its description.
2) Conjurations are not by default creatures, so they don't act like creatures for the purposes of cover.
And when the conjuration is a creature, it will say so in its power description. If it interacts with the rules for flanking or OAs, it will say so. Just because -some- conjurations may be creatures, it doesn't mean that -all- conjurations are creatures, or even most.
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