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[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

Ashy

First Post
Dark Jezter said:
I was kind of disappointed that the Mouth of Sauron didn't make it into the movie. I was looking forward to seeing him present Gandalf and Aragorn with Frodo's gear and seeing the despair on their faces as they believe that Frodo failed in the quest.

I agree 100% - I was waiting to see what they would do with the Mouth of Sauron - saddening, really... Also, the "Spotlight of Sauron" was bad and should have not been done, and the whole "Arwen's fate is now tied to the Ring as well" scene should never have been considered, much less written and filmed...

Other than those things (and all the stuff they left out, of course), I thought it rocked, and I am a Tolkien fan from waaaaaayyyy back....
 

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Salthanas

First Post
I think I'm going to reserve judgement on this film until the extended version comes out. Overall it was very good but I can't help feeling that Jackson fluffed some key scenes badly and in parts it seemed very choppy indeed. The highlight for me was the charge of Rohan, the low point was the bizarre spotlight of Sauron. As a villain Sauron did'nt really do it for me, the giant eye just seemed a little bit too bizarre (I still think PJ should have had a physical Sauron as he was in the books but from what I've heard Peter Jackson say he genuinley thinks that Sauron was just this giant eye which is in fact wrong). I think PJ should have missed out the whole Frodo sending Sam away scene, I know why he did it but still. I think the whole Shelob scene would have been improved with both Frodo and Sam going through her lair together as it happened in the book.

No Gandalf confrontation with the Witch King! One of the scenes I was most looking forward to as well ,mores the pity. Even the shot of a Nazgul attacking Gandalf and Pippin did'nt make it into the final cut. Overall though the standard for the three films has been very high and in consideration it could have been a whole lot worse than it turned out. Still though I can't help but think that Return of the King was really just a trailor for the extended Return of the king out next year ;)
 

Salthanas said:
Overall it was very good but I can't help feeling that Jackson fluffed some key scenes badly and in parts it seemed very choppy indeed.
Quite agreed. I was surprised at how long the movie took to get going, and then felt after that that a lot of important stuff was kinda rushed.
Salthanas said:
The highlight for me was the charge of Rohan, the low point was the bizarre spotlight of Sauron.
I don't understand everyone's antagonism towards this. I thought it worked quite well as a cinematic device while inside Mordor, at least.
Salthanas said:
As a villain Sauron did'nt really do it for me, the giant eye just seemed a little bit too bizarre (I still think PJ should have had a physical Sauron as he was in the books but from what I've heard Peter Jackson say he genuinley thinks that Sauron was just this giant eye which is in fact wrong).
You either need to reread the books, or pony up a quote. I'm dying to see where you'll find one that proves that Sauron had a physical body. EDIT: Because I happen to know quite well that there isn't such a quote anywhere to be found...
Salthanas said:
No Gandalf confrontation with the Witch King! One of the scenes I was most looking forward to as well ,mores the pity.
That's an odd scene to look forward to, since all they do is look at each other menacingly for a while, then a c0ck crows and the Witch-king hightails it away from the gate. That's hardly the stuff of epic film-making.
Salthanas said:
Still though I can't help but think that Return of the King was really just a trailor for the extended Return of the king out next year ;)
I kinda felt that way as well. At least I have some kind of cinematic LotR experience still to look forward to!
 
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Pielorinho

Iron Fist of Pelor
Numion said:
No one. But you understand that the ring could move to the next joint, if gollum took the whole finger into his mouth. Then he starts chewing, the ring moves (because its bigger than the finger), frodo tries to pull his finger out, gollum gets only the tip bit of, but he's got the ring.

Thats too much analysis, but try it for yourself ;)
I just did, and I still don't get it -- are you sure you explained yourself right? If you could post again with more detail, I'd appreciate it: I'm only going to be able to try it again nine more times.

Daniel
 


Salthanas

First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
Quite agreed. I was surprised at how long the movie took to get going, and then felt after that that a lot of important stuff was kinda rushed.

I don't understand everyone's antagonism towards this. I thought it worked quite well as a cinematic device while inside Mordor, at least.

You either need to reread the books, or pony up a quote. I'm dying to see where you'll find one that proves that Sauron had a physical body. EDIT: Because I happen to know quite well that there isn't such a quote anywhere to be found...

Gollum comments on the fact that Sauron has a finger missing on the black hand when the Hobbits are before the Black Gate in the Two Towers, furthermore Tolkien is quite specific in his letters that Sauron had a physical form. Its not really something open to debate.

As for the Witch King scene, well its not just the confrontation between the two its everything that happens around it as well, the darkness breaking at dawn, the cockerel crowing for a new day and then the sound of Rohans horns blowing in thiat particular powerful moment. In the film we just had cave trolls break through the gate and run amok before we heard the arrival of Rohan. Not really quite as dramatic as things were in the book I think personally :)
 
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myrdden

First Post
Speaker said:
At one point - one of my favourite scenes from the book, when the riders sing 'Death', it just became too much. I just... sobbed. I let out everything. I cried, and my whole body shook with emotion.

My wife (who is not all that big into fantasy but loves the LotR and Potter movies) became a bit choked up at that scene too. It was a very powerful image on the screen.

I personally loved the film and can't fully describe how satisified I am with the adaptation. And with the extended edition coming out next year it can only be better.

Myrdden
 

SnowDog

First Post
Last night, immediately after the movie, I really didn't want to think too much about it. I just wanted to let it soak in.

Today I can think a bit about it, and offer some thoughts.

I loved the movie. It was a fitting conclusion to the series and it was emotionally satisfying with plenty of everything you need in a great fantasy story.

It's really impossible to review this movie as an actual movie. The Tolkien story is so much a part of my own "back story" that nothing else can really compare. On the one hand, if PJ just put together a series of vignettes, each showing a scene from the book in his incredible reenactment of Middle Earth, I'd still be thrilled.

I think that's why I love Fellowship so much. I was too busy picking my jaw off the ground in awe over the visualization of everything I had been imagining since the age of 9 to really worry about pacing or story. By TTT that stuff was more taken for granted, and even Gollum and Helm's Deep (both incredible achievements) couldn't take away my disappointment at the changes in the story and pacing. In a way, ROTK has the same problem. Even the characters are firmly-enough established, most of them. Sure, there are lots of "wow, cool" moments, but in the end I'm still left slightly distracted the whole time as my brain collates all the changes and omissions.

As with TTT I think this movie will grow on me with repeated viewings, as I grow to appreciate the movie's pacing and story on its own instead of thinking of it as a telling of the book with some things left out and changed.

I think the biggest problem I have with it is a problem that's overwhelming in the book as well. The main story finishes and then wraps up everybody else's story for chapters and chapters. And yet after all we've invested in these people, you want to see it all wrap up. And that feeds into what I said before. It's not that it would make a better movie to spend an extra hour after the Ring is destroyed wrapping up all the stories, it's just that all the post-Ring stuff is a part of my memory of the story and I would love to see it put into visual form.

For me, the high points of the movie (that I can remember off the top of my head) were:
- The Witch King and his Fell Beast. Handled very well.
- Heck, every time a Fell Beast was on screen.
- Every time anyone sang, especially Pippin's song to Denethor.
- Aragorn's transformation into the King and his acceptance of his duty.
- Theoden's redemption and restoration as a Kingly figure. They did a great job with Rohan, period.
- Elrond's face as he "delivers" Arwen to Aragorn.
- The return to Hobbiton.
- Minas Tirith itself; you really could understand Boromir's statements in the first movie about his love of the city.
- Comic Relief well done but not overdone.
- Gandalf taking charge, well done but not harped on.
- Eowyn, Pippen, and the Witch King. An iconic moment from the books brought to us almost word for word.
- Almost all the effects were outstanding.
- Sam carrying Frodo.
- Sam and Frodo realizing they're doomed and finishing the quest anyway.
- Sam and Frodo at the end. I'm glad PJ didn't shy from portraying their closeness.
- (I'm sure there's more, but this is off the top of my head)

Lower points:
- The pacing of the climb+spider+tower for Sam/Frodo/Gollum just felt off. We go from a couple minor fights to a full-fledged massacre in the tower in like 10 seconds.
- The march to the Black Gate + Sauron's diversion of forces to it happened too quickly.
- Pippin and Denethor ... the complexity here was a bit lost as Pippin felt overwhelmed with debt to serve this man and yet terrified by his madness. It all happened too quickly and you just felt like he was trying to tell too much.
- The head Orc in the siege on Minas Tirith looked like something out of Toxic Avengers.
- Denethor's madness not sufficiently explained. He had a Palantir, man, and it's been driving him mad. How is this the same man that inspired such loyalty in his two sons? We just don't see it. Denethor just doesn't come across as tragic enough.
- Ok, Legolas is badass. The single-handed Mumakil-slaying was a bit overkill. Just let this guy loose on the Pellenor Fields and the battle's over.
- The Army of the Dead singlehandedly turning the battle so dramatically felt a bit weird. I honestly don't remember how it's portrayed in the book.
- We never see Eomer grieve for King Theoden.
- Somewhat cheesy effect shots: Legolos + Mumakil, Shelob wrapping Frodo in silk.

Not to mention things which were missing which distracted me in their absence, but which perhaps aren't really low points in the movie, just things which bugged me as a Tolkien fan.
- Aragorn never directly challenges Sauron. There's this great moment where Aragorn grabs a Palantir and directly challenges Sauron. It's a big part of his accepting the mantle as King, and a big part of why the distraction works.
- Pippin's friendship with the son of the guard in Minas Tirith.
- Faramir + Eowyn in the Houses of Healing
- Aragorn proving his right to rule by fulfilling the prophecy about being a healer.
- No wrap-up for Saruman.
- Not enough new characters. There's Prince What's-his-name (Imrahil?), and those Pukel-men or whatever. Hmm. As you can tell, these are obviously not that important to me as I can't remember much about them. But in any case, I waited for them and they weren't there :).
- Wrapup story for Legolas and Gimli missing.
- No "Mouth of Sauron" character at the Black Gate.

Anyway. I loved the movie. I'll see it a few more times and buy it over and over again on DVD :). Don't get the wrong impression.
 

Rugger

Explorer
John Crichton said:
I thought the 20 minutes of epilogue was great. A fitting ending. Like coming back from a war. Or well, exactly like coming back from a war. Everyone was changed.

Anyone who wore the One Ring had to leave the world. Gandalf had served his purpose and was no use to the world. Merry & Pippen will never be the same. Sam grew up and found himself; he found himself being a leader and a hero. Aragorn accepted his true purpose. Actually the only ones who didn't change that much were Legolas & Gimli who just found each other as friends.

It was fitting that after all they went through that we got to see how they were all truly affected by their journey. Classic.


I agree...the movies is 9+ hours long: it deserves a nice long ending, not a 5 minute wrapup.

That being said, I'll put on my video editor hat and say this: The endings should NOT have been done with Fades to Black. I think THAT is what is making people antsy...if they had cross-faded, it would have been less jarring.

Dang. Best films ever. I have NEVER felt like I did when it was over. Equal amounts of bliss and anger (cause that's all, folks!)....wow.

-Rugger
"I WantAnEowynOfMyOwn!"
 

Rugger

Explorer
Salthanas said:
No Gandalf confrontation with the Witch King! One of the scenes I was most looking forward to as well ,mores the pity. Even the shot of a Nazgul attacking Gandalf and Pippin did'nt make it into the final cut.

Yeah...funny thing this, esp considering it was in all the trailers!

In the "Weapons and Warfare" book that is out (GREAT book), they even mention something about the Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff...and since the book is written more in the context of the films, I gotta wonder if we may have a treat waiting in the EE for us...fingers crossed!

-Rugger
"I ShallNotPass!"
 

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