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spontaneous mystic theurge?

Axegrrl

First Post
I'm wondering if there's an equivalent of the Mystic Theurge for spontaneous spellcasters -- specifically, something like a Favored Soul/Battle Sorcerer combo.

If not, what would you give for hit dice, BAB, and saves if you took the Mystic Theurge and specified spontaneous casting? It removes the "obsessed with magical lore" aspect. Since the character does not spend time poring over musty tomes to find spells and whatnot, there would be more time to develop other abilities....
 

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Axegrrl

First Post
The mystic theurge pretty much presumes you have cleric levels and wizard levels (the quote is "simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards"). The divine caster class has d8s for hit dice, the cleric BAB, and two good saves. The arcane caster class has d4s for hit dice, the wizard BAB, and one good save. The mystic theurge gets d4s for hit dice and the wizard BAB, and only one good save. Your HD, BAB, and saves are those of the arcane class. From one viewpoint, you trade the feats (if any) and the familiar for divine spells.

Both the favored soul and the battle sorcerer are spontaneous casters. They both get d8s for hit dice and the cleric BAB. The favored soul gets three good saves; the battle sorcerer gets one. Comparing the mystic theurge to the arcane precursor of this combination, you lose not only the familiar to get the divine spells, but you also cut the hit points in *half* -- *and* your BAB goes down. This combination loses a lot more to get the same benefit.

The text in the mystic theurge indicates that it is a very bookish class:
- they "draw power from...musty tomes"
- they are "obsessed with magical lore"
- they are "always on the hunt for...new arcane spells"
All of these indicate a studied mastery of magic, completely in line with a d4, wizard BAB, and wizard save bonuses.

Contrast that to the sorcerer: "They have no books, no mentors, no theories -- just raw power that they direct at will." Similarly, the favored soul "...is able to perform the same tasks as her fellow divine spellcasters with virtually no study; to her, it comes naturally." The hit dice and BAB of the ultra-studious don't seem to be appropriate for a spellcaster who relies on natural talent.
 

monboesen

Explorer
So your asking if it would be a good idea to allow a Spontaneous theurge. Working in every way like a Mystic theurge, except having better HD (d6?)medium BAB and two good saves.

Effectively making it a decent combat type with nice saves and a strong progression in both arcane and divine spells.

Assuming that it would require 2 level divine and arcane spells it would be four (from 4 to 8) depressing levels of suckiness before entering. But at 18 level you would be something like BAB +13, HD 8d8+10d6 (75 hp), Spontaneous arcane&divine caster 14 lvl (and 7 level spells) and enough spellslots to power on all day, Fort +15, Refl +8, Will +15.

In my opinion

The short answer: NO

The long answer : NO NO NO NO
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
I'd say that the benefit of having a single casting stat -- Charisma -- more than makes up for the lost difference in BAB and saves. The difference in entry-level will be painful, though.

-- N
 

the Jester

Legend
A mystic theurge gets the worst of everything except spells. This is not for flavor; this is for balance. Otherwise they get the equivalent of more than their components at every level.

In other words, I would never let a character do what you're suggesting.
 

Trickstergod

First Post
If there's one thing that should be ignored, it's the flavor text of the Mystic Theurge; it's essentially just a dual-spellcasting class balance fix, to a degree.

If that's the only problem, well, there you have that - consider the flavor text just filler for everything else. The Mystic Theurge is the dual-classed spontaneous spellcaster.

Conversely, if you're looking for something that offers up everything the Mystic Theurge does, but with better saves, attack bonus and hitdie...

Well, that's just a no no. You'd have to have some very hefty restrictions and requirements to make that work, or at the least, you couldn't have full spellcasting progression in both classes - that's just pushing it.
 

Scion

First Post
change the theurge to requiring spontaneous casting, make up a feat or two as placeholder requirements, it can be done.

After all, prc's that require you to be a higher level before taking are allowed to be somewhat stronger (it is written right in the description of prc's ;) ).

You could even go so far as to make them need to be able to cast all spells spontaneously, one divine, one arcane, and of 3rd level or higher for each. Toss in a few prereqs (skill focus: knowledge arcana, religion, or some such low priority feats) and then build the class as you see fit.

At that point you could probably get away with d8 hd, progression in two good saves, medium bad, dual spellcasting progression, and a few beanies at that (such as being able to cast spells from one class with the other classes slots.. maybe of one level higher or something, and something allowing them to spontaneously metamagic faster, and some other stuff). After all, it will only be an 8 level prc, starting at level 12, and have incredibly difficult prereq's. At that point it 'deserves' some major power boosts.
 

Axegrrl

First Post
If there's one thing I've learned from looking over assorted prestige classes, it's that they are *not* balanced -- either against each other or against the core classes.

Magic-based prestige classes (whether arcane or divine) typically have +1 caster level *and* a special ability for *every* level. That's definitely more powerful than the base class. The Loremaster and the Red Wizard are both examples of that -- at a couple of levels, the Red Wizard gets *two* specials in addition to the spells.


So consider:
Requirements:
- Ability to spontaneously cast both 2nd-level divine and 2nd-level arcane spells (translation: entry requirement is level 9).
- Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks (translation: you spend 16 out of your 22+(int bonus*11) skill points on these two skills).
- Feat: maybe Skill focus in either Spellcraft or Knowledge (Religion).... any others that would be apporpriate?
- Patron diety's portfolio includes magic (this works out to an alignment restriction as well, given the favored soul's 1-step alignment restriction, but restricts the choice of diety more than the favored soul class)

HD: d6 (drop by 1 from favored soul and battle sorcerer)?
BAB: as cleric (same)
Saves: as wizard (drop by 2 from favored soul; same as battle sorcerer)

I'm thinking of restricting all metamagic feats from this character -- i.e., if the character knows any metamagic feats, they've focused too much on manipulating either divine or arcane energy, and are not as open to learning to channel/cast the other type of magic. So, "must not know any metamagic feats" would be an entry requirement, and "can not learn any metamagic feats" would be a class restriction.

Another thing to consider: while this may look overpowered compared to an arcane-based prestige class, take a look at the divine-based prestige classes: d8s, cleric BAB, two good saves, special ability and spellcasting every level.
Comparing this to a cleric-based prestige class, you drop a hit die level, a good save, and all the per-level special abilities in exchange for sorcerer spells.
 

monboesen

Explorer
The argument that later possible entry in a prestige class should allow greater benefits is not a very good one, even if it is presented in some core book.

It reinstates the Wizards role from the former editions, weaker than everyone at lower levels, but stronger than all others at high levels. That might be cool in a novel, in a game its just annoying. First for the player of the wizard, later for everyone else.

And that even only applies if the character is played from low levels and up. But the same prestige classes is as likely (or actually more likely) to be used when replacing high level dead pc's. With one fell swoop you have avoided the dreary low levels (or even medium levels for the suggested prestige class) and gone straight for the power levels where you leave everyone else in the dust.

The goal to strive for is that all classes should be equally powerful at all levels. Thats obviously not the case or perhaps even possible. But to allow such a class is definately a step in the wrong direction.

Another thing to consider: while this may look overpowered compared to an arcane-based prestige class, take a look at the divine-based prestige classes: d8s, cleric BAB, two good saves, special ability and spellcasting every level.
Comparing this to a cleric-based prestige class, you drop a hit die level, a good save, and all the per-level special abilities in exchange for sorcerer spells.

Thats still a very good deal in my opinion. The clerics fighting power at high levels clearly comes from buffing spells. Without those he will be crushed in melee by appropiate foes. So taking away a few hp won't change that at all, with divine power, divine favor and righteous might running he's a powerhouse anyway.

That gets even worse when he can also cast spells as shield, Improved invisibility and polymorph. It also fills out the weakest point of a cleric type, ranged combat, with lots of nice area of effect and ranged touch attack spells.

I'm sorry but it is just a munchkins dream.
 
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