Spring Attack and other tough questions...

[MeanGenes]

Hi guys,
I have a few questions that recently came up in our game:

1) Ok, Character A has spring attack and is attacking Character B in the following diagram.

XAX
XBX
XXX

Now Character A now moves counterclockwise so that he appears as follows:

XXX
XBX
XXA

The question is, does Character B get an attack of opportunity on Character A? Normally, I'd say yes, but with Spring Attack, character A does not get an attack of opportunity from Character B because according to the wording of the feat, the target of the attack cannot take an AOO against a character with Spring Attack when he moves in or out to attack. The DM said he should have gotten an AOO, but we, the players, didn't. What's your opinion (or the official word if you have it)?

2) Here's a question on the duelist PrC. The Precise Strike ability additional damage to opponents susceptible to sneak attacks. I thought that the additional damage only worked when the target of the attack had lost his dex bonus to AC. However, there is no mention of the target losing his dex bonus as a prerequisite for the bonus damage. Is this true? The Duelist at higher levels does 4d6 damage with a rapier against every opponent susceptible to criticals regardless of whether the opponent is flanked or has lost his dex bonus to AC? If so, that's extremely powerful, IMO. Just wondering if there's been errata on it.

 

[shilsen]

1) There is no AoO. As the feat description says, no AoOs are incurred due to movement. Note that this only applies to the defender (Character B in this example), so other characters could take AoOs if A moved through or out of areas threatened by them.

2) The ability does apply to all targets that aren't immune to criticals. Don't expect it to be errataed (the S&F errata is already out). The ability isn't as powerful as it looks. The fact that the Duelist only gains the ability with a single-handed piercing weapon, and that the bonus is +3d6 and not susceptible to multiplying via criticals, are both balancing factors. A fighter of the same level with a two-handed weapon will cause more damage than the duelist on average.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

1) You left out one piece of vital information. When did A make an attack against B? If he moves, attacks, and moves, then B does not get an AoO because of the Spring Attack feat. If he attacks and moves, or moves and attacks, the B would get an AoO, albeit A still gets the AC bonus from Mobility and Dodge if B is his chosen opponent.

2) It is true. The additional damage is added to every hit against those creatures with discernable anatomies not immune to critical hits. A duelist with a rapier is deadly.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

2) A Duelist with +3d6 Precise shot, a 14 Str, and a +1 Flaming Rapier will do 5d6+3 with one hit per round, the Crit only ups the damage +1d6+3. An 11th level Fighter with a 14 Str and a +1 Flaming Rapier will get 3 attacks, +13/+8/+3 (more if weapon focus, weapon finesse, etc.) and has the possiblity (if she hits with all 3) of doing 6d6+9, +1d6 per crit, which could be from 12-20 if they keened the rapier and had improved Crit, up to 9d6+18.

I see Precise Shot as a finishing move when you don't want to take a chance of missing and want to do max damage. Otherwise, you will do more in the long run with a normal hit.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Bobby: Precise shot is not limited to one use per round. If the duelist has iterative attacks, precise shot damage is added to each of them. For example, a fighter 10/duelist 10 can make 4 attacks with his rapier per round, doing 1d6+3d6+other bonuses per attack.

 

[Dalin the Monk]

1) You left out one piece of vital information. When did A make an attack against B? If he moves, attacks, and moves, then B does not get an AoO because of the Spring Attack feat. If he attacks and moves, or moves and attacks, the B would get an AoO, albeit A still gets the AC bonus from Mobility and Dodge if B is his chosen opponent.

This is not necessarily correct.

There was a long debate concerning this very thing many ages ago... what was stated by the sage is that it doesn't matter whether you move-attack-move, move-attack, or attack-move... in each case you got the benefits of the feat.

Though it's not spelled out directly, the FAQ also implies this

When or how often you move during your turn is irrelevant, but you must make an attack to get the benefit. Only the opponent you attack becomes unable to respond to your movement with an attack of opportunity; that opponents allies suffer no such restriction.

As I recall, many people did not like the sage's ruling (big surprise) But it's about as official as it's going to get.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

The feat itself says you do not provoke the AoO when "Moving in this way." I would take this phrase to refer to the aforesaid benefit of moving before and after the attack. At least, that is how I read it. I would have to respectfully disagree with the sage on this one. I would like to know his reasoning, however.

 

[Thanee]

Spring Attack says, that your movement does not provoke AoO from the defender, everyone else can make AoO, of course!

I also think, that it doesn't matter whether you actually move before and after the attack.

'Moving in this way' means to me, moving while using this feat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darke]

I agree with Dr Zoom - for me it's only a Spring Attack if you move before AND after - not only before OR only after.

If I remind correctly, Monte Cook and Morrus uses both a house rule where you must move 10 feet before and after to get the benefit of spring attack.

I'm not sure about the 10 feet thing (I think 5 feet should work too) but I stick with "before AND after".

das Darke

 

[Bobbystopholes]

Dr. Zoom, I find that irksome. You are correct though. You do lose extra attacks from an off hand weapon, though. It seems they missed this in the errata. Guess that's why it only goes up to +3d6 at around 17th or 18th character level, when it won't matter that much