Spring Attack related question...

[jontherev]

back on topic

This discussion of partial actions is going off topic. I'd really like to hear someone else's opinion of what the term used in Expert Tactician means. I'm referring to the term, "normal action". You can only use the feat before or after your "normal action". Our group has always taken this to mean "standard or full-round action". Therefore, I am only debating the other issue (whether move is an action) to humour Rigormortis. I never (and I'm a power-gamer) thought about trying to use ET in the middle of a standard action.

Personally, this is the crux of the debate for me. Once you answer this question, and the question of whether or not the extra partial action from Haste counts as part of this "normal action", then the original post can be answered. IF and WHEN you answer the first question, you can then try to argue whether a full move is an action or not. This sounds like a good email for the Sage.

One last argument for this: If what you say is true, then what was the point of even bothering to say you may use the feat "before or after your normal action"? This was obviously meant to restrict the feat in some way, and using your interpretation, there is practically NO restriction on when the feat may be used.

I feel it is too powerful to allow when combined with Spring Attack. Allowing you to use ET basically whenever you want during a move would allow the Spring Attacker to attack TWICE every round AND move far enough away to prevent a full attack in response. I find that unbalancing for a feat that is already incredibly powerful.

 

[RigaMortus]

I don't know how else to explain it... It may sound funny, but a Move IS NOT an action. There is no place I am aware of which defines a move as an action. Here is the definition of Standard Action. Someone, anyone, if you want to make me shut up and agree with you, please show me where it says or even hints at a move as being an action OR a move is an action within a Standard Action or that a Move is treated like an action in the following quotes:

A Standard Action allows you to "do something" AND Move your speed during the combat round.

To me the "do something" part is an action and the Move part is just a move, and not considered an action. Doesn't state otherwise, so lets go on.

You can Move BEFORE or AFTER performing the activity of the ACTION

This is the bulk, the meat of my defense. Quite simply this is saying that you can take your move before or after you complete the action you decided to do. This action (as well as the move) is part of the Standard Action, but the move isn't necessarily an action (as it is never stated) however the activity you are performing obviously is (because it is called an action).

Doing this ACTION takes the same time as casting a 1-action spell in terms of what else you can do in a round.

Note that there is no mention of the word move in this sentance. This sentance is referring to the ACTION you can perform within the Standard Action. It defines the amount of time that is used when performing this ACTION.

For instance, you can MOVE AND dismiss a spell or MOVE AND use the Heal skill to help a dying friend.

Notice that there are two different actions here. One is to dismiss a spell, the other is to use the Heal Skill. Notice that Move was used in BOTH cases as a Move and it was never indicated that it was a Move action.

You can also perform as many free actions (see below) as your DM allows.

Nothing to point out on this last quote as it has nothing to do with the "normal" or "regular" action you get as part of your Standard Action nor does it have anything to do with the Move as part of your Standard Action.

I can conclude that:

Standard Action = an action + a move

And I want to be clear on something... I read the entire post where Magus_Jerel was trying to convince everyone of his ways. Perhaps reading that has clouded my mind because I did not (and don't think I am) agree with him. But if what I am saying here sounds similiar to what he was trying to describe, then I guess I do agree with at least some interpretitions he is saying.

 

[RigaMortus]

Re: back on topic

This discussion of partial actions is going off topic. I'd really like to hear someone else's opinion of what the term used in Expert Tactician means. I'm referring to the term, "normal action". You can only use the feat before or after your "normal action". Our group has always taken this to mean "standard or full-round action".

So in the surprise round, you make a partial charge towards the nearest enemy. He is flat-footed, thus no Dex bonus. Expert Tactician kicks in... No wait, it doesn't... This is a partial action, not a Standard or Full-round... Oppps...

Is that how you would play it?

 

[Ywain]

1. I think you are missing the significance of the word "and". The two things-done taken as a whole comprise a Standard Action. I see nothing that defines moving as a "Free Action" (it isn't free because you can't just add it to a Full-Round Action or a Partial Action). And I see nothing that defines moving as "Not an Action", or at least if it is Not an Action it is an "inherent part" of the standard action, so it cannot be separated from that standard action.

2. "activity you are performing obviously is (because it is called an action)."

Actually, the activity isn't called an action in this quote. The phrase used is "the activity of the action" which is one part of the standard action. The other part is *the movement of the action*, they are both portions of the same action.

3. "Note that there is no mention of the word move in this sentance."

There is no need to, both activities are standard actions and as such allow a move. There is no need to mention a 5' step if you take a move equivalent action in place of the move, either. Neither the move nor the 5'step is pertinent to the point that is being made so for clarity and brevity they are both glossed over. (I wish they had have done this with the "Note that Armor Check Penalties Apply... " text in each of the class descriptions.)

4. "Notice that there are two different actions here. One is to dismiss a spell, the other is to use the Heal Skill. Notice that Move was used in BOTH cases as a Move and it was never indicated that it was a Move action."

Well, um, dismissing a spell or using the heal skill have no indication that they are actions either. One standard action consists of both This and That. One action two things are accomplished. If one were to simply move 15' and do nothing else, you will have performed a Standard Action.

5. "I can conclude that:

Standard Action = an action + a move"

Or Standard Action = (activity + move).

6. "So in the surprise round, you make a partial charge towards the nearest enemy. He is flat-footed, thus no Dex bonus. Expert Tactician kicks in... No wait, it doesn't... This is a partial action, not a Standard or Full-round... Oppps... "

Don't be pedantic, in a surprise round you can only take partial actions so in that circumstance the partial action would be your Normal Action. You knew what he meant. Don't try to nit-pick for points, there is enough honest nit-picking to be done to solve this problem.


Anyhoo. Would be bad form to ask if anyone has seen an example in *any* published work (from any source, in any format) that assumes that a move is separate from the standard action in which it is performed? Even one example might be a good indication that it might have been the designers intentions.

 

[jontherev]

Song and Silence, pg. 36 right hand column:

"Tail Someone: Since the Hide skill allows for movement, you can use it as a move-equivalent action or part of a move action if desired."

S&S, pg. 37 left hand column:

"Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again as a move action."

Out of the same book that Expert Tactician is in. So far, no errata has changed this.

 

[RigaMortus]

No, you CAN'T substitute a partial action for a move-equivalent action. Where did that come from?

You can't???

So you are telling me, if I am Hasted, I can't use my PARTIAL ACTION to say... Drink a potion (which is a MEA)? I can't use my PA to say... Move 30' or whatever my base movement is at that time (which is a Move)? I can't use my PA to say... Draw a weapon (another MEA)?

So what can you use the partial action for? Just attacks?

 

[Artoomis]

Let me make it clearer. You CAN substitute a MEA for a partial action, but you CAN'T substitute a partial action for an MEA.

It's a one-way thing. You cannot, for example, cast two spells instead of the the MEAs you can normally take in a round.

 

[kreynolds]

And your point is?

That you're wrong.

The debate is about whether the "move" you get as part of a Standard Action counts as an action itself.

Yes, it does. (Sorry I was late in responding. I had a pretty busy day.)

 

[AGGEMAM]

Just to make a few thing clear.

A standard action is an attack action plus a move.

An attack action does not grant a move, the standard action does.

If you decide not to attack you are not using the standard action.

The attack action (please note: THE, and not the plural version of the word action) described by spring attack is described under the heading 'Attack' and only entails the subsets of that. Which is Melee Attack, Ranged Attack, and Unarmed Attack. Since Spring Attack defines 'with a melee weapon' it can only be used with Melee Attack and Unarmed Attack.

By definition, Spring Attack cannot be used with anything else than the attack action, which also excludes the charge action and the full-attack action. I do know that the Sage (under the influence of a Feeblemind spell) adviced that Spring Attack could be used with the Charge action. However for some reason this advice has never made the D&D FAQ (or the errata), at least not in their current versions. Isn't that strange? The Sage's advice (on this subject) has never will probably never have any base in official D&D rules.

 

[jontherev]

You can't???

So you are telling me, if I am Hasted, I can't use my PARTIAL ACTION to say... Drink a potion (which is a MEA)? I can't use my PA to say... Move 30' or whatever my base movement is at that time (which is a Move)? I can't use my PA to say... Draw a weapon (another MEA)?

So what can you use the partial action for? Just attacks?

Hey Riggy, did you happen to notice my post above which had MOVE ACTION used as a game term? Just curious...