Spycraft vs. d20 Modern

[Macbeth]

Spycraft is a great system. The ONLY downside is that it's a little hard to create an "ordinary" NPC (i.e. no training). What I do (having both Spycraft and d20 Modern) is use the d20 M classes as "ordinaries" (sp?). The PCs are always Spycraft classes, as is almost any threat they are likely to face (gaurds, enemies, foils, etc), but the average guy on the street is a d20 Modern char. Buy Spycraft, use the d20 M SRD.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

For James Bond/ Agent Flynn excitement you can't go far wrong with Spycraft.

For modern fantasy d20 Modern is better.

I think Spycraft is cooler though

If only because of the names of two feats: One hand holding the wheel....
...A gun in the other.

The Auld Grump

 

[C. Baize]

Here is a great post by Woodelf in comparing the two games

But there are a few factual errors. I can't comment on the opinions, because I don't have Spycraft, but I will correct the factual errors regarding D20 Modern, just so a comparison is not being made between facts about one system, and errors about another.

Action Dice (Spycraft) vs. Action Points (D20M)
You get 1-3d6 Action Points per level. Each use either adds d6 to a d20 roll, or lets you use an ability you otherwise can't use. The don't replenish/regenerate. IOW, you get (on average) 4-11 Action Points per level, and when you use them, they're gone. That's less than one Action Point per average encounter. As an additive to a die roll, they're fairly pointless (too little effect), especially at higher levels. As a necessary expenditure to use one of your nifty abilities, they're too powerful--and thus too rare. You're either gonna never use them, hording them for something more important ('cause you never know what might be around the next corner), or you're gonna run out frequently. They become not a cool player-influence mechanic to allow heroic stunts, but instead become just another resource to manage, like spell slots and hit points.

Okay. Action points.
Basic Classes get (5+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Advanced Classes get (6+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Prestige Classes get (7+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Action points are meant to be a heroic effort, or the cinematic effort... Detective Murtaugh pulls his 6 shooter, rolls his head to pop his neck and steady himself, takes aim, and fires...
Honestly, in 5 levels, my main D20 Modern hero has used a total of *1* action point... not because I'm hoarding them, but because it was the right time to use it.

FX (D20M) vs superscience (Spycraft)
D20M has something called an FX system. If you're familiar with other [semi-]generic systems, you'll be expecting a framework system that will let you do whatever extraordinary stuff you want to in your game--spellslinging, super-science, occultism, psychic powers, alien tech--whatever. This isn't it. It's a stripped-down version of the spell, psionics, and magic-item systems from D&D3E. Yes, you can use it for other things, by assigning spell equivalents to whatever it is you're describing. But it suffers from the same limitation as D&D magic in general--there's not much of a framework for extending it. If there's a spell that's pretty close to the effect you want, no problem. But if you want to do something completely different, you're only about one step better than guessing when it comes to assigning it an appropriate level. Furthermore, it is almost identical to the relevant systems from D&D3E. So, if you want to incorporate D&D-style magic, psionics, or magic items into your game, you can end up with almost exactly the same results just by opening up your PH/PsiH/DMG. D20M gives you essentially nothing new in this area.

In essence correct, but I have to laugh...
"This doesn't do it."
"If you want it to do it, you can."
"But this doesn't do it."

As for superscience, and alien tech... it's not D20 Future... it's D20 MODERN. D20 Future is coming later, I hear.

Psionics
Spycraft doesn't have psionics in the core rules. You have to get the Shadowforce Archer campaign setting to get them. That said, if you want psychic powers in your game, it's a steal. The psionics rules in D20M are, as i've said, pretty much a clone of those in the PsiH. Which means that they are pretty much a clone of the spellcasting rules in D&D3E. I.e., not very much like psychic powers as depicted in most modern fantasy settings (Carrie, Scanners, Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, X-Files, Minority Report, etc.). The only genre i can think of that depicts psychic powers that behave anything like those in D&D3E (and therefore D20M) is DragonBall Z, and other anime fighting stories.
In contrast, the psionics system in Shadowforce Archer rocks--it has the feel of psychic powers, and mechanically ties in sensibly. You can relatively easily do things like scan minds and fool people, it's harder to physically affect the world, and you won't be summoning matter out of nowhere.

Advantage: Spycraft. Even if you take into consideration the fact that it doesn't have a psionics system in the core book, you can always mate your D&D materials to Spycraft, and have everything that D20M does on psychic powers

Again, in essence, correct. And again, I have to laugh.
"Psionics: D20 Modern has it in the core book, Spycraft has it as a supplement... therefore Spycraft is superior..." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Equipment
D20M has a lack-luster equipment list. It pretty well covers those real-world items that "adventurer" sorts might want. And that's about it. The magic items section in FX is the only place that includes unusual stuff. And, again, that suffers from the list approach of magic items in D&D.
Spycraft covers all the real-world stuff, and all the cutting-edge stuff, and a whole bunch of over-the-top stuff, a la James Bond and Mission Impossible. And it's easy to tailor the equipment list for your campaign style: frex, you could just cut out anything with the "superscience" descriptor, and you'd instantly switch from James Bond/Avengers to Die Hard (or maybe Mission Impossible).

Advantage: Spycraft. no contest. Just reading through the Spycraft equipment chapter makes me want to play a game, and i don't even like the genre. Oh, and i forgot to mention the very cool systems for hacking and computers.

Again, I say: It's D20 MODERN. Not d20 Future.
Apples and oranges, man.
D20 Modern is meant for gaming in the MODERN genre. Look outside your window... add a spattering of magic, and supernatural critters... It isn't MEANT to be D20 Future.

martial arts
The D20M system has about as much flavor as monks in D&D--it's all about results, and in the process completely skips over any flavor.
The system in Spycraft is also results-oriented, but has a nice veneer of flavor to go with it.

Advantage: Spycraft, but only by a hair. See the Feats section, below, for more related commentary.

I don't know about Spycraft, but the core D20 Modern martial arts section IS a joke... Get Blood and Fists for modern martial arts stuff.

feats
D20M adds a bunch of martial arts feats, and a whole slew of +2/+2 skill feats. And the martial arts system is, IMHO, so-so. Though the stuff the Game Mechanics have added made me go back and give it a second chance. Overall, i found the feats in D20M uninspiring.

With very few exceptions, the feats in D20 Modern make good sense.
Plus they made Frightful Presence a feat with a pretty hefty prerequisite, ensuring that nobody can get it before 6th level. How cool is THAT?

Reputation (D20M) vs. ? (Spycraft)
Here's one place where D20M does better: it *has* a Reputation system. And it's a nice, simple one. However, i wish it did more--as is, it has even less effect on interpersonal interactions than alignment in D&D, IMHO. I wis they'd taken it further.
OTOH, the class abilities and feats in Spycraft mostly make up for there not being an overall reputation system. Despite playing plenty of games with them, i didn't even notice it was "missing" from Spycraft until i started comparing it to D20M, precisely because most of the effects you want out of a reputation system *are* there, in other ways. And often with much more flavor.

Advantage: Spycraft. But D20M has a better framework there if you wanted to build a really robust *and* flavorful reputation/influence type system. But it'd take a fair bit of work [says the person who's in the middle of building one from scratch for a D20 game].

Look... here's this one, again...
"D20 Modern has it, and it's a cool thing... Spycraft doesn't have this cool thing... Therefor Spycraft is better..."
I'm glad I'm not drinking anything, as I re-read through this.
D20 Modern has reputation, it also has feats to increase or DEcrease your reputation. It's all there.
HOWEVER.
I, too, wish they had done something WITH the reputation bonus... Like at a certain reputation level you have neighborhood notoriety, a couple more and it's local, a couple more and it's the area, a couple more and it's the state, a couple more, it's the region, and so on... up to world notoriety... An easy enough fix, but it's not IN D20 Modern. I like the reputation system, but it needs further development.

gun combat
Both systems introduce rules for such things as strafing, burst fire, and so on. Without going into too much detail here (both are moderately complex), i'll just say that i find those in Spycraft to be easier to actually use, and slightly more sensible. In D20M, you basically need feats to be able to strafe or burst-fire effectively. In Spycraft, those are actions that anyone can take, though there are feats that will lessen any applicable penalties.
Advantage: Spycraft

You can strafe and burst fire in D20 Modern at the standard -4 penalty.

Chases (Spycraft) vs. [nothing] (D20M)
Spycraft is almost worth it alone for the chase system. It frickin' rocks! Basically, the predator and prey each have a selection of maneuvers to select from, and you cross-referenc them and use skill checks to determine how they effect the distance between the parties. Also a nice simple system for determining if obstacles come up. And a whole slew of feats and class abilities that tie into chases. It's the first really good system i've seen for playing out movie-style chases in 20+ years of gaming (and, therefore a couple hundred discrete game systems).
D20M has nothing of the sort. Instead, it has detailed tactical-level vehicle movement rules. Great if you have a detailed map of the area, not much help if you want a long chase with high-speed vehicles, however (how many GMs can prepare a detailed map of, say, the Chicago freeways for a chase of the scope of the end of Blues Brothers?). Also not much help for aerial chases. And it abstracts the wrong things (vehicle speed) and not the right things (total distance travelled).

Advantage: Spycraft, hands down. If i was forced to use D20M for a chase, i'd just throw the rules out and wing it with skill checks, because it would be less of a headache.

So....In D20 Modern, there's not a whole section on chase scale and vehicle manuevering, and vehicular stunts, from pages 155 - 163, incorporating vehicular movement and vehicular combat? Wow... I must be imagining things...

RPing and GMing stuff

Since he doesn't say anything about D20 Modern here, except to speculate that it sucks, I won't put anything here.

Overall: Advantage: Spycraft. The only person i'd recommend D20M to over Spycraft is the person who's only really interested in "D&D Modern"

Just so we're clear.... the only person to whom you would recommend D20 Modern is someone who wants to play... D20 Modern.
Uhmm...
Goodness... that's a leap of epic proportions, there.... I'm truly astounded...

 

[Lugh]

OK, as the Spycraft fan who hasn't read d20 Modern, I'll post my equally informed rebuttal.

Okay. Action points.
Basic Classes get (5+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Advanced Classes get (6+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Prestige Classes get (7+½ Character Level, rounded down) action points per level.
Action points are meant to be a heroic effort, or the cinematic effort... Detective Murtaugh pulls his 6 shooter, rolls his head to pop his neck and steady himself, takes aim, and fires...
Honestly, in 5 levels, my main D20 Modern hero has used a total of *1* action point... not because I'm hoarding them, but because it was the right time to use it.

The primary difference being that d20 Modern gives you cool stunts x times per level, and Spycraft gives you cool stunts x times per session. And Spycraft gives lots of opportunities for you to get more action dice, allowing the GC to reward exactly the sort of play he's looking for.

In essence correct, but I have to laugh...
"This doesn't do it."
"If you want it to do it, you can."
"But this doesn't do it."

Yup, that's pretty much what he said. The system makes a pass at it, but misses the mark. With some work, it's do-able. But straight out of the book, it's not as good.

Again, in essence, correct. And again, I have to laugh.
"Psionics: D20 Modern has it in the core book, Spycraft has it as a supplement... therefore Spycraft is superior..." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

NOT what he said. The fact that d20 Modern has it in the core book is a point in its favor. The fact that Spycraft has a superior system gives it the advantage.

Again, I say: It's D20 MODERN. Not d20 Future.
Apples and oranges, man.
D20 Modern is meant for gaming in the MODERN genre. Look outside your window... add a spattering of magic, and supernatural critters... It isn't MEANT to be D20 Future.

And, hence, you cannot use it for Men In Black. Or, at least, not without significant work. Of course, some of this problem can easily be fixed with supplements (such as UMF), but it's a failing of the core book.

With very few exceptions, the feats in D20 Modern make good sense.
Plus they made Frightful Presence a feat with a pretty hefty prerequisite, ensuring that nobody can get it before 6th level. How cool is THAT?

Less cool than The Look, which makes you truly devastatingly handsome. Or Groupies, but that's in a supplement.

Look... here's this one, again...
"D20 Modern has it, and it's a cool thing... Spycraft doesn't have this cool thing... Therefor Spycraft is better..."
I'm glad I'm not drinking anything, as I re-read through this.
D20 Modern has reputation, it also has feats to increase or DEcrease your reputation. It's all there.
HOWEVER.
I, too, wish they had done something WITH the reputation bonus... Like at a certain reputation level you have neighborhood notoriety, a couple more and it's local, a couple more and it's the area, a couple more and it's the state, a couple more, it's the region, and so on... up to world notoriety... An easy enough fix, but it's not IN D20 Modern. I like the reputation system, but it needs further development.

His point was that everything you would want to do with reputation is covered by other mechanics in the Spycraft system. It just doesn't have an actual mechanic labeled "reputation" (though that is coming in a soon-to-be-released supplement). Because d20 Modern left off the actual implementation of effects, whereas Spycraft has the effects, the author gave the advantage to Spycraft. Personally, I call this area a draw.

So....In D20 Modern, there's not a whole section on chase scale and vehicle manuevering, and vehicular stunts, from pages 155 - 163, incorporating vehicular movement and vehicular combat? Wow... I must be imagining things...

Ah, but, as I understand it, it's not really a new system. It's just scaling up the standard movement rules, which forces the DM to have a map ready of the area you're speeding through. Spycraft has a different subsystem, which is much more abstract and cinematic. Personally, I consider the chase system to be one of the major highlights of the Spycraft system.

Just so we're clear.... the only person to whom you would recommend D20 Modern is someone who wants to play... D20 Modern.
Uhmm...
Goodness... that's a leap of epic proportions, there.... I'm truly astounded...

Do note that he said "D&D Modern." It's a common term to reflect the fact that d20 Modern has real trouble straying far from its basic roots. Those roots, as you mentioned previously, are the world outside your window with magic added. If you want to play HKAT, or Men In Black, or several different anime themes, you have to invest more than a little work. If you just want to play Buffy, then that's close enough to "modern with magic" to work. It's surprisingly limited in its genre selection for a game touted as a generic rules-set. But, perhaps, that can be alleviated by supplements that don't actually reinforce that impression, unlike Urban Arcana.

 

[Dismas]

I am slightly confused, what extra do I have to invest to Man In Black.

I have Spycraft MRB and d20 Modern MRB. Men in Black is easy to do with either of the books without breaking a sweat.

 

[C. Baize]

OK, as the Spycraft fan who hasn't read d20 Modern, I'll post my equally informed rebuttal.

Cool!

The primary difference being that d20 Modern gives you cool stunts x times per level, and Spycraft gives you cool stunts x times per session. And Spycraft gives lots of opportunities for you to get more action dice, allowing the GC to reward exactly the sort of play he's looking for.

I'm not certain what a GC is, I'll make the assumption that it's the same as the GM...
As with any rule book, the "RULES" are a guideline and the GM is free to hand out ad-hoc rewards.
We add to this, the fact that by the Wizards average, PCs should have between 4 and 5 encounters per level, and we see that should they want to, they can use 1-3 action points per encounter... I don't see where this is a huge difference, really... one way or the other... Seems to me, it's a different mechanic achieving the same effect, in essence.

NOT what he said. The fact that d20 Modern has it in the core book is a point in its favor. The fact that Spycraft has a superior system gives it the advantage.

What he said was that you could use your PsiHB with Spycraft, and do as well, or you could buy a separate book... I believe the comparison was supposed to be Core Book to Core Book, meaning that D20 Modern HAS it in the core book, and Spycraft does NOT (from what I gather)... The fact that he said the Spycraft book was superior, in this category even though it doesn't have it, is what made me laugh.

And, hence, you cannot use it for Men In Black. Or, at least, not without significant work. Of course, some of this problem can easily be fixed with supplements (such as UMF), but it's a failing of the core book.

Unless you absolutely NEED the superscience to do Men in Black, then it's just saying that the critters are aliens that will allow you to do Men in Black.

Less cool than The Look, which makes you truly devastatingly handsome. Or Groupies, but that's in a supplement.

I dunno... I'll take Frightening Presence to cause enemies to cower or run away. And for supplements, Leadership is easy....

Ah, but, as I understand it, it's not really a new system. It's just scaling up the standard movement rules, which forces the DM to have a map ready of the area you're speeding through. Spycraft has a different subsystem, which is much more abstract and cinematic. Personally, I consider the chase system to be one of the major highlights of the Spycraft system.

I dunno.. detailing chase scale, vehicular stunts, vehicle speeds, combat from vehicles, etc... Looks pretty good to me...
On the other hand...
I've never read the Spycraft version, so I can't say which is better.

Do note that he said "D&D Modern." It's a common term to reflect the fact that d20 Modern has real trouble straying far from its basic roots. Those roots, as you mentioned previously, are the world outside your window with magic added. If you want to play HKAT, or Men In Black, or several different anime themes, you have to invest more than a little work. If you just want to play Buffy, then that's close enough to "modern with magic" to work. It's surprisingly limited in its genre selection for a game touted as a generic rules-set. But, perhaps, that can be alleviated by supplements that don't actually reinforce that impression, unlike Urban Arcana.

I would suggest taking a look at 3rd party supplements, especially the ones being put out by RPGObjects... The Blood and ____ line, particularly.
The reason is, that I don't REALLY think Wizards is going to do a whole lot of Non-FX D20 Modern support...
Although... D20 Future will be coming out, and will likely detail superscience... at least one would hope so.

 

[ElectricDevil]

Blech. More "X system is better than Y system" nonsense.

Anyway, what is important is find what you like. For me, I had to decide which system I wanted to use as the base of my campaign.

As written, Spycraft has MUCH better support than d20 Modern, which for most purposes, puts it in the clear advantage. However, I will never play Spycraft again, since d20 Modern is what I need to run the games I want to play. It's a bit more low-mimetic than Spycraft, I'd say, but that's what I prefer.

Third-party products are a bit thin on both sides right now... Actually, I only know of one third-party book for Spycraft... and it's not even out. "Yo Joe!"

There's more stuff coming out of the woodwork for d20 Modern now, too. The "Blood and-" series of e-books from RPGObjects is excellent, as are the Real-Life Roleplaying book series (Colombia and Somalia, from Holistic Designs). Not to mention the various settings that are popping out of the woodwork.

Each game is better suited to doing one thing, and not the other... though that never stops anyone from playing them as something else.

High-adventure? Spycraft. SG-1 is High Adventure, as are James Bond and the A-Team or GI Joe. Star Wars, which is high adventure, is very similar to Spycraft in most respects (but it's not Spycraft, really).

"Grittier" games? d20 Modern. Post-Apocalyptic games throw their lot behind d20 Modern as Darwin's World is already d20 Modern, and Gamma World d20 will be, as well.

 

[dpmcalister]

There are two other third-party Spycraft products due for release soon - Combat Missions and Most Wanted. Can't remember their release dates atm though

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Don't forget that using Spycraft means you can very easily use D20 Stargate when it comes out.

 

[Azure Trance]

There are two other third-party Spycraft products due for release soon - Combat Missions and Most Wanted. Can't remember their release dates atm though

I'm interested in them. Though, I am hoping they don't go for the standard "larger than life almost implausible plot" format. I think it would be a nice change to showcase a more realistic but with equally damaging/dangerous consequences (ie, no destroying the world for the heck of it, or bankrupting the stock market for the heck of it, etc).

Tangentially, lately I've been getting great ideas for espionage adventures from comics. "The Losers" and "The Sleepers" frex.