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D&D 5E Standard CR Assessment: Standard abilities a high level party is always expected to have?

Hussar

Legend
Might be useful to benchmark party damage/round.

10th - around 20 damage/PC/round

15th - around 30 damage/PC/round

20th - I actually don't know.

But, benchmarking the DPR for a party, which you can generally come up with through observation pretty quickly, makes designing subsequent encounters a lot easier. If you know that your party is dealing 100 (ish) points of damage/round, you need about 300 hp worth of baddies for a 3 round fight.
 

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First Post
4) ability to transverse the field of battle / ability to stop enemy from doing the same.

Having a good movement rate is HUGE. Having good ranged attacks is HUGE.

Unfortunately 5th edition doesn't put nearly as high a price on these abilities as they are worth. In English: it doesn't cost you (much) to create a Dex-based mobile character. It doesn't cost you to create a ranged fighter. You gain very little (too little) by choosing a slow, encumbered character (such as the archetypal axe dwarf in plate mail).

Sure that dwarf is impressive in melee combat. But the secret is that most monsters are only impressive in melee combat. Fight them in other ways and they are wimps.

Unfortunately, while the PHB hands out mobility and range like free candy to heroes, it is exceedingly stingy with giving monsters tricks up their sleeves. Monsters simply aren't given the tools they need to ensure they reach the heroes in melee, and they are often only given impressive melee attacks.

Taken together, this means you can break 5th edition by not playing it the way its designers naively just assumed you would: the way you've always played D&D. But if you focus on battlefield control and range, you will find that monsters are much less likely to counter that to deliver any real challenge, than in any previous edition.

Yes. Yes to all of that. High dex, high Init, high mobility and a strong ranged game are how to spank 5e encounters. This was also true in 4e (perhaps less so) and 3rd. My memories of 2nd and 1st are less clear, but I don't think we started using a battlemat until 3rd.

The thing is, most players do not know this truth, so much so that I find it mildly thrilling to find it clearly stated here. They do not covet the Mobile feat. They do not build dex based melee combatants (except for rogues). But they also don't know where to stand on the battlefield. So maybe those naive designers are not so naive.

In that class survey that someone just released, battlemaster was ranked as the subclass that is most fun to play. And that doesn't surprise me. I played a melee battlemaster and it was a hoot. But I did retire him after level 11. I knew his best days were behind him. My fellow players were aghast. They loved my battlemaster. He rocked. I brought in a sorcerer spell sniper, my answer to tier 4. Take that, legendary resistance. The sorcerer was not as well regarded. But he was really efficient.

Most of the melee weapons are STR based. The best armor requires STR. You have to go against the grain to build a DEX paladin, fighter or cleric. And if your DM uses dice to determine what kind of weapon that magic weapon really is, you're not going to get one. Is it worth doing anyway? Yeah, it is. But if you don't know that, you aren't going to bother trying. And people just don't know that. It's not in the book.

Of course, this is just my personal experience, but in my group half the players started with 1st edition AD&D and the other half have been playing for 10 or 12 years. The kids.
 

Zmajdusa

First Post
Yeah, dex based builds tend to need to be ranged. Fun thing though is that you can build Charisma bow Warlocks now, and Sharpshooter with Elven Accuracy is fun.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Might be useful to benchmark party damage/round.

10th - around 20 damage/PC/round

15th - around 30 damage/PC/round

20th - I actually don't know.

But, benchmarking the DPR for a party, which you can generally come up with through observation pretty quickly, makes designing subsequent encounters a lot easier. If you know that your party is dealing 100 (ish) points of damage/round, you need about 300 hp worth of baddies for a 3 round fight.
I would say your figures are two to three times lower than what well-built (call it min-maxed if you must) characters (in games with feats and multi-classing) reach.



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Li Shenron

Legend
10th level
1) Ability to negate magical resistance (some sort of magical attack).
2) +1 to attack rolls (magic items or spells).
3) Fire Resistance (or another really common resistance for that game).
4) Various ways to bring a player up from unconsciousness.
5) Almost no single attack in the game can kill them.

15th level
1) Ability to rest comfortably in any environment (tiny hut, magnificent mansion, etc etc).
2) Immunity to Fear
3) Ability to leave a combat when the party is in trouble.
4) Resistance to several energy types.

20th level
1) Ability to negate any negative monster ability with prep time.
2) Ability to stop any monster for at least 1 round.

Honestly I haven't played that high level yet, but anyway I would take NONE of these for granted.

Many of these they can't get with 100% coverage, the DM can find a way to negate or bypass them with the proper choice of monster, NPC spell or environment conditions.

"+1 to attack rolls" is irrelevant or meaningless... +1 compared to what? If you mean +1 weapons, who cares? It doesn't make a substantial difference, only a statistical difference, and then again it's a relative difference compared to the starting bonus of each PC.

"Bring a player up from unconsciousness" is available at level 1, as long as you have a Cleric or Druid in the party. OTOH, if you don't have one, you have to make other assumptions such as healing potions being available. While true in at least 90% of the games, again it's not 100%.

"Immunity to Fear" is something that personally I've rarely seen players care for.

I'd say "Fire Resistance" is the most common, because "fire" in general is the most common magical (and sometimes non-magical) energy type, and more or less every player expects there'll be dragons or similar monsters and spells at some point in the game.

But then maybe I am just being too harsh with your OP... it's just that "always expected" sounds bogus to me in the first place. I'd advise against expecting anything in particular from players!
 

Yes. Yes to all of that. High dex, high Init, high mobility and a strong ranged game are how to spank 5e encounters. This was also true in 4e (perhaps less so) and 3rd. My memories of 2nd and 1st are less clear, but I don't think we started using a battlemat until 3rd.

The thing is, most players do not know this truth, so much so that I find it mildly thrilling to find it clearly stated here. They do not covet the Mobile feat. They do not build dex based melee combatants (except for rogues). But they also don't know where to stand on the battlefield. So maybe those naive designers are not so naive.
IME, most players are aware of much of that. They simply are less interested in "spanking encounters" and more interested in playing a character concept that resonates with them.

In that class survey that someone just released, battlemaster was ranked as the subclass that is most fun to play. And that doesn't surprise me. I played a melee battlemaster and it was a hoot. But I did retire him after level 11. I knew his best days were behind him. My fellow players were aghast. They loved my battlemaster. He rocked. I brought in a sorcerer spell sniper, my answer to tier 4. Take that, legendary resistance. The sorcerer was not as well regarded. But he was really efficient.
Case in point: your optimised sorcerer was much more mathematically superior to your battlemaster, so you probably enjoyed winning encounters with him. To the rest of your group, who regarded having fun as the way to win D&D, the battlemaster was probably more fun. I'm guessing partly in the way he played more probably more in the character interactions that had with him as an established group member.

Most of the melee weapons are STR based. The best armor requires STR. You have to go against the grain to build a DEX paladin, fighter or cleric. And if your DM uses dice to determine what kind of weapon that magic weapon really is, you're not going to get one. Is it worth doing anyway? Yeah, it is. But if you don't know that, you aren't going to bother trying. And people just don't know that. It's not in the book.
Its not really hidden: I've found that many are aware of good ways to eke out extra performance. For most however, its just not their highest priority. If they want to play a Dwarven strength-based melee combatant, then they'll play a Dwarven strength-based melee combatant, even though they know that a wood elf handcrossbow expert might be theoretically more optimal mathematically.


I would say your figures are two to three times lower than what well-built (call it min-maxed if you must) characters (in games with feats and multi-classing) reach.
Bear in mind I'm guessing that that is intended as a sustained figure for an entire party.
When my wizard threw a fireball into a werewolf pack, his damage for that round was much higher than 20. While he was hitting the survivors with his Chill Touch cantrip, his damage was considerably less.

Likewise, the Hasted, blessed, GWM fighter is likely going to be doing more damage than that, but those concentration buffs, and the time taken to cast them, are reducing the DPR of the cleric and wizard.

When considering party capabilities, particularly when evaluating their performance against a single climactic encounter, I think on-demand nova damage capability is probably more important than the sustainable party average though.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Bear in mind I'm guessing that that is intended as a sustained figure for an entire party.

[]

When considering party capabilities, particularly when evaluating their performance against a single climactic encounter, I think on-demand nova damage capability is probably more important than the sustainable party average though.
Since you yourself end your post with the point I went here to make, I don't have to say anything :)
 

Hussar

Legend
I would say your figures are two to three times lower than what well-built (call it min-maxed if you must) characters (in games with feats and multi-classing) reach.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Note, I did mean across the group. So, a 5 PC party at 10th level is doing about 100 points of damage.

You're saying your 10th level 5 PC party is dealing 300 points per round, on average? Seriously? Good grief.

I'm really, really glad I don't play at your table.

And, no, Nova doesn't really matter. Not if you actually follow campaign design guidelines and don't expect the game to hand hold you when you run 1 encounter/day adventures. Novaing a single encounter doesn't really matter to me since I know that I'll have two to three more encounters in my pocket before the PC's get a short rest.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Note, I did mean across the group. So, a 5 PC party at 10th level is doing about 100 points of damage.

You're saying your 10th level 5 PC party is dealing 300 points per round, on average? Seriously? Good grief.

I'm really, really glad I don't play at your table.

And, no, Nova doesn't really matter. Not if you actually follow campaign design guidelines and don't expect the game to hand hold you when you run 1 encounter/day adventures. Novaing a single encounter doesn't really matter to me since I know that I'll have two to three more encounters in my pocket before the PC's get a short rest.
A martial character can dish out 80+ damage in a round at level 12 or so. Not his whole party - that one character.

That's just four hits at 20 damage a piece. What's so remarkable with that?


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Quartz

Hero
A martial character can dish out 80+ damage in a round at level 12 or so. Not his whole party - that one character.

Well, you're assuming that all his hits hit and and gets a reaction or bonus action and he's got a 20 stat for +5 damage and is using one of the +10 damage feats. How often is that the case?

And if your assuming Guidance or similar, then there are really two characters involved, aren't there?
 

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