Star Wars: Credo of the Grey Jedi . . . I chose something else!

[Taraxia]

KOTOR 2 spoilers

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That's doing the character a disservice, her motivations were much more complex than that. She was neither Sith, nor Jedi, she disavowed both philosophies as being flawed and overly dependant on the force.
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Well...

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Kreia is the equivalent of that stock character from movies like Requiem for a Dream, the drug addict who's been on so many different illegal drugs and medications over the years that now none of them really work at all anymore, she has to take a dozen illegal substances just to function and she spends all her time twitching, drooling and swearing at everyone around her because her brain just doesn't work right anymore and reacts badly to *all* drugs.

I'd still call her more Sith than Jedi -- just as Atton said, her *attitude* is still pretty Sith (I want to feel and experience everything I can, and damn the costs) even if she's rejected the Sith themselves, out of a kind of nihilistic apathy more than anything else.[/sblock]

 

[hobgoblin]

hmm, there is allways kyle katarn (or whatever his name was).
in jedi outcast one can pull from both dark and light powers, without forgoing the other.

to me a gray jedi isnt one that wants to take the best of both without the penaltys. but one that see that somtimes, one do have to dip into the dark side. question is, can you pull out before its to late. can you take up some points and then retreat to atone for them later on?

its kinda like a person that can take drugs without developing a habbit/addiction. because thats what the dark side can be seen to be, an addiction. an addiction to power. and as the saying goes, power corrupts.

in that way the title gray jedi is a bad one. failed jedi may be more correct as they fail to uphold the jedi code. yet they are not sith either, as the sith is a very limited club (a master and an aprentice after the war). in many ways its a force user that have taken up their own path, like a pioneer walking out into unknown territory.

sometimes i wish star wars or religion was proven right, that there is some entity or force out there that judge your actions based on a system of pure right and wrong.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

One common thread I'm seeing in the "Grey Jedi Exist!" posts is they are predominantly drawing from one source ... video games.

Not movies, not novels, but video games. In the order of canonicity, they're typically at the bottom of the barrel.

Star Wars video games are more about doing "all the cool stuff you see in the films/books." Shooting lightning from your fingertips (or other body part if your a Scottish folk hero) is part of that "cool stuff" package, hence it can be used.

Kyle Katarn was part of a FPS series of games, which are more about killing bad guys in new and interesting ways, so of course they were going to let the players unleash dark side powers without presumably "going dark."

Knights of the Old Republic, which I really enjoyed, again took a slightly skewed stance on Dark/Light Side Force "powers" in that you didn't have to be a Dark Sider to use Dark Side powers, but that if you were a "Light Sider" then using stuff like Force Choke and Force Lightning were a lot harder (i.e. cost more Force/mana to use).

Ankh-Morpork Guard hit the nail right on the head, since that's the viewpoint espoused by George Lucas, the brainchild of this whole thing; you're either part of the solution (working in tune with the Will of the Force), or part of the problem (Dark Side/corrupting influence on the Force). Anyone claiming "middle ground" is decieving themselves, and an "ends justifying the means" approach worked out real well for a chap by the name of Anakin Skywalker.

Sorry of the rant, but this whole Grey Jedi nonsense really irks me. To be blunt, it stinks to me of munchkinism/uber-powergaming.

 

[Falkus]

Well...
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Kreia is the equivalent of that stock character from movies like Requiem for a Dream, the drug addict who's been on so many different illegal drugs and medications over the years that now none of them really work at all anymore, she has to take a dozen illegal substances just to function and she spends all her time twitching, drooling and swearing at everyone around her because her brain just doesn't work right anymore and reacts badly to *all* drugs.

I'd still call her more Sith than Jedi -- just as Atton said, her *attitude* is still pretty Sith (I want to feel and experience everything I can, and damn the costs) even if she's rejected the Sith themselves, out of a kind of nihilistic apathy more than anything else.[/sblock]

[sblock]What exactly are you talking about?

And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.

And you do realize that her ultimate goal was to destroy the force?[/sblock]

Not movies, not novels, but video games. In the order of canonicity, they're typically at the bottom of the barrel.

Actually, you're one hundred percent wrong about this. A game bearing the Star Wars label is considered to be just as canon as any of the EU novels.

Sorry of the rant, but this whole Grey Jedi nonsense really irks me. To be blunt, it stinks to me of munchkinism/uber-powergaming.

And the whole idea of dark side powers strikes me as idiocy. Why is it okay to cut off a guy's limbs with your lightsaber, but if you zap him with force lightning, you're on the path to the dark side?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

[sblock]What exactly are you talking about?

And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.

And you do realize that her ultimate goal was to destroy the force?[/sblock]



Actually, you're one hundred percent wrong about this. A game bearing the Star Wars label is considered to be just as canon as any of the EU novels.



And the whole idea of dark side powers strikes me as idiocy. Why is it okay to cut off a guy's limbs with your lightsaber, but if you zap him with force lightning, you're on the path to the dark side?

1) Just running around and cutting down people isn't light side, either. You need to be on the defense.
2) Well, no real person can actually zap people with force lightnings - but since it is a mystical ability: What if to use it, you really had to channel all your hate and anger - it's not just that you summon a few charged particles, you have to use your (negative) emotions to activate this power. That is a considerable difference to swinging a light saber, which is more about technique and perception, but doesn't require special emotional involvement.

 

[Falkus]

2) Well, no real person can actually zap people with force lightnings - but since it is a mystical ability: What if to use it, you really had to channel all your hate and anger - it's not just that you summon a few charged particles, you have to use your (negative) emotions to activate this power. That is a considerable difference to swinging a light saber, which is more about technique and perception, but doesn't require special emotional involvement.

That seems somewhat arbitrary.

 

[hobgoblin]

the more one reads up on any light vs dark belief system, one will find that they are quite arbitrary when streched. you can see that when anakin is asked to spy, and him stating that its against all that the jedi have tought him so far.

there is a reason why real life laws seperate between hurting or killing by accident, and doing the same with planing or while otherwise in control of the outcome. sure, if said accident could be prevented by taking some extra time, your punched harder then if it happend out of the blue (of your punished at all in the latter case).

so its a matter of intent.

but one cant argue with the force, so dont try to pull a force lightning and then come and say that you where only planing to scare the person. a mind trick or crushing a object next to him as a demonstration of your powers would be just as effective and not having any risk of hurting the person. the latter may well be on the edge of the dark side btw (obi-wan may well have used to former against the sand people)...

 

[Falkus]

but one cant argue with the force, so dont try to pull a force lightning and then come and say that you where only planing to scare the person. a mind trick or crushing a object next to him as a demonstration of your powers would be just as effective and not having any risk of hurting the person.

Hypothetically: I'm a jedi, and I've come up against a squad of assassin robots who are about to kill a whole bunch of innocent civilians. I know that this praticular model of robot has a layer of corotis ore in their armor, rendering them mostly immune to light sabers, but they are also highly vulnerable to electricity. I only have a few seconds to act. Are you going to tell me that by using force lightning to destroy the droids and save the innocent people would be going towards the dark side?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Hypothetically: I'm a jedi, and I've come up against a squad of assassin robots who are about to kill a whole bunch of innocent civilians. I know that this praticular model of robot has a layer of corotis ore in their armor, rendering them mostly immune to light sabers, but they are also highly vulnerable to electricity. I only have a few seconds to act. Are you going to tell me that by using force lightning to destroy the droids and save the innocent people would be going towards the dark side?

Yes.

Why?

Because there are other ways to do it. Yes, it will still likely require some kind of physical/Force action on your part, but Lightning should NEVER be the first option for a Jedi(or anyone claiming to follow the Light).

Again, the Dark Side is not evil...it is Corruption. It is not how the Force is SUPPOSED to be, and therefore, any use, no matter the justification, is wrong.

Also, it should be mentioned that its important to remember that Jedi and Sith are not synonomous with Light Side and Dark Side.

 

[DarkKestral]

Yes.

Why?

Because there are other ways to do it. Yes, it will still likely require some kind of physical/Force action on your part, but Lightning should NEVER be the first option for a Jedi(or anyone claiming to follow the Light).

Oddly, Yoda's used Force Lightning as a first method of attack himself in one or two of the movies, as far as I recall. Plus, I think that he's considered one of the ultimate "Masters of the Light Side" in the entire canon. Therefore, it stands to reason that Jedi can use Force Lightning in the right situations. Most typically, in a situation where electricity is needed. Such as.. destroying heavily armored droids that are resistant to lightsaber damage.

More technically, a light-side user simply submits to the Force, but a dark-side user makes it submit to their will. That's the only listed difference. Most Dark Side users are evil, but there are Dark Jedi who abandon the Jedi laws against using the Dark Side. There aren't any listed Light Side Sith, necessarily, but the concept of Light and Dark can be a bit more neutral. I consider it more Creation/Destruction rather than Good/Evil or Natural/Corruption. Light-Side users tend to do more creating of things; Dark-Side users tend to focus more heavily on destruction. This means that Light users will band together more often, as they are more willing to create a larger entity, but Dark users tend to fracture, as their tendencies towards destruction cause problems for organization. (However, they are perfectly OK with ruling non-Force-sensitives) When they don't split apart, they tend to get involved in internecine infighting and politics. (All of the known Sith seem to do this)

I would argue the Natural/Corruption goes on in terms of the Yuuzhan Vong. Contrast the Force-sensitive races that remain somewhat in their 'natural' state vs. the Vong, who can't use the Force at all, and 'corrupt' everything they touch with biological weapons.