Starting at 1st level with a higher group

[Quartz]

Aren't we missing that lower level characters get much more XP? The OP assumes a 1:1. See the DMG, p37.

Suppose we have 4 5th level PCs and 1 1st level PC. They fight 4 CR4 critters. The first level PC gets 1080 XP, the 5th level PCs 800 XP.

 

[The Edge]

A small thing to remeber is that the low level fellow needs to count as involved enough to get his exp. I think it could be fairly fun still, with a bit of luck regarding situations.

I've actually done something like this though, and it was a lot of fun. In my game, the PCs ended up finding out that actually getting the captive npcs out was going to be much harder than just 'freeing' them. A (rules savy) guest player played one of the captives, who was of particular importance to keep safe. It meant that encounters that normaly the party would push aside, became a real chalenge, as they tried to protect the inocents. Forced them to spilt, use magic on protection, used healing resources, and put more restrictions on their offensive options. Sounds harsh, but it was a really good distinction to the normal kind of thing.

It went so well, that come the next session, I decided that their boat home had been forced to leave. So they had to take the long way back, which included survival elements, and more trouble from pursuers.

They might not want to do it again right away, but its one of the most talked of adventures.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

If a low-level character is smart, and knows how to avoid getting in over his head with a higher group, he can catch up relatively quickly. Especially if the DM is awarding scaled XP per the "3.5 way."

I disagree. Like many other have pointed out, a Fireball will kill most 1st-level characters (and probably some 2nd and 3rd level ones too). Sometimes there is no way that a person can avoid being in the AoO of a Fireball, no matter what he does or how "smart" he is.

What happens if a combat starts and the Wizard goes before the 1st-level character even gets a chance to move? The Wizard could cast a Fireball and kill the 1-st level character before he has even had a chance to act, let alone be "smart" about his actions.

The same goes for melee. An opponent that would challenge a 5th-level party in melee will likely hit a 1st-level character more times than he will miss. Chances are he will do enough damage to kill the 1st-level character in one hit. Yes, there are ways he could avoid melee but is that fun for the player? And should he still be getting XP if he isn't contributing to the encounter?

I think a 1st-level character has a greater chance of dying repeatedly rather than surviving and levelling up quickly. And in any case, I'm not sure if a lot of players would enjoy the experience, regardless.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Storminator]

I disagree. Like many other have pointed out, a Fireball will kill most 1st-level characters (and probably some 2nd and 3rd level ones too). Sometimes there is no way that a person can avoid being in the AoO of a Fireball, no matter what he does or how "smart" he is.

What happens if a combat starts and the Wizard goes before the 1st-level character even gets a chance to move? The Wizard could cast a Fireball and kill the 1-st level character before he has even had a chance to act, let alone be "smart" about his actions.

The same goes for melee. An opponent that would challenge a 5th-level party in melee will likely hit a 1st-level character more times than he will miss. Chances are he will do enough damage to kill the 1st-level character in one hit. Yes, there are ways he could avoid melee but is that fun for the player? And should he still be getting XP if he isn't contributing to the encounter?

I think a 1st-level character has a greater chance of dying repeatedly rather than surviving and levelling up quickly. And in any case, I'm not sure if a lot of players would enjoy the experience, regardless.

Olaf the Stout

Well, if the 5th level PCs include a cleric, the 1st level guy will probably take no damage from the Fireball... Pro from Elements.

There's no doubt the 1st level guy isn't pulling his own weight. But it won't last forever either. One serious fight and the 1st level guy levels!

As a standard procedure for replacement PCs, it sucks rocks. As a "sometimes it might happen..." could be cool.

PS

 

[Dross]

Well, if the 5th level PCs include a cleric, the 1st level guy will probably take no damage from the Fireball... Pro from Elements.
PS

Provided that someone had enough research or thoughts about someone using fireball in the near future. That is not something that is always available. And given the number of area of effect fire/cold/acid/electricity/sonic/force spells there are, that is a lot of ground to cover.

Not thinking of it only has to happen once!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Well, if the 5th level PCs include a cleric, the 1st level guy will probably take no damage from the Fireball... Pro from Elements.

There's no doubt the 1st level guy isn't pulling his own weight. But it won't last forever either. One serious fight and the 1st level guy levels!

As a standard procedure for replacement PCs, it sucks rocks. As a "sometimes it might happen..." could be cool.

PS

There's still more than one way that a 1st level character can die apart from Fireball. I was just using Fireball as an example. There are only so many things that you can plan for. 1st level characters travelling with a 5th level (or higher) party are very fragile. One hit will generally be enough to take them into negatives, if not kill them.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Rvdvelden]

To add insult to injury, the 1st level character also only has 1st level wealth and equipment. So not only does he have less HP that make him more vulnerable to death, but his attacks will suck (lower BAB and not even a masterwork weapon), his AC will suck (only able to buy a sub-par piece of armor). His survival will solely depend on the leniency of the DM.

 

[Glyfair]

There's still more than one way that a 1st level character can die apart from Fireball. I was just using Fireball as an example. There are only so many things that you can plan for. 1st level characters travelling with a 5th level (or higher) party are very fragile. One hit will generally be enough to take them into negatives, if not kill them.

I agree. The "If a low-level character is smart..." comment doesn't seem realistic or based on play experience. If the low level character is smart he doesn't go out with the guys that can breathe hard and kill him.

Quasqueton, how many 1st level PCs have you seen played in campaigns where the rest of the PCs are 6th level? 10th level? How long did they survive?

I believe it might be possible but only if the DM caters the campaign to having a low level character survive. Have side issues that they can send the low level PC on (although typically the higher level PCs can just solve those problems without working up a sweat). Maybe a very heavy roleplaying campaign where several levels pass with no combat (or at least party involved combat). Those are incredibly rare, and a lot of work.

From a standard D&D campaign POV, if the PC stays near the "big guns" and area of effect attack will affect him and he will die (be it fireball, dragon breath, trap, etc). If he stays away from the party he will be picked off. You know that predators attack those that stray from the heard.

 

[green slime]

To add insult to injury, the 1st level character also only has 1st level wealth and equipment. So not only does he have less HP that make him more vulnerable to death, but his attacks will suck (lower BAB and not even a masterwork weapon), his AC will suck (only able to buy a sub-par piece of armor). His survival will solely depend on the leniency of the DM.

Or possibly on how friendly his co-players are?

"Here, pipsqueak, put away that rusty kitchen fork. You can borrow this +1 longbow I hardly use, 'til you pick up the ropes of this adventuring stuff. Just keep your head down, stay calm, and follow our lead. You might want to talk nicely to Bob over there by the campfire, and see if he can't lend you his mithral chain pyjamas. Just don't mention Sandra, or Goblins."

 

[delericho]

Even if the character is given a carte-blanche free pass by the DM (guaranteeing he will not die under any circumstances until he's 2 levels below the part average), and even if he 'catches up' on level with every game session, and even if we accept that a character is reasonably effective at 2 levels below the party average, the player of the 1st level character still has to sit out two whole sessions before his character reaches effectiveness.

That doesn't sound like much fun, especially since none of the assumptions above are particularly safe.