Stats Below 8

[Dausuul]

I was just reading the "Thugs & Angels" thread on the General forum, recalling some characters from my old stat-rolling days, and thinking... does anyone else feel 4E point buy should have an option to take stats below 8, and multiple stats below 10?

I recognize that this increases the abuse potential of dump stats, and I'd be fine with sharply diminishing returns--say, one-half point buy for each point you reduce your stats below the standard minimums. (So, if you take your lowest stat down to 7 and your second-lowest to 9, you get a total of one more point to play with on your remaining stats.) That would discourage casually dumping your unused stats to 3, while still providing some compensation for an extra-low stat. It would also offer a way to "stretch" your good stats just a little bit farther, if there's a feat you really want but don't quite qualify for.

What do you think?

 

[Herschel]

No. 8 is already a minus/below average stat. A few examples:
*A guy too stupid to tie his own shoes would not be bright enough to work the intricate fastenings of plate armor.
*A wizard too weak to even lift his spellbook would not be functional on the road.
*A guy so despised would not have a regular party put up with him.

In other words, there's room for a guy who may be a bit weak in one area but adventurers have to be functional party members in a dungeon/town/adventure setting.

 

[Styracosaurus]

whoops

 

[Styracosaurus]

Low stats can be fun, but typically players become dissatisfied with playing a character with such a handicap.

Too dumb to perform addition?
Too dumb to contribute to solving a problem?
Too dumb to avoid walking into obvious traps?
Too dumb to avoid being easily duped out of your money?
So dumb that you blunder around, never learning from your mistakes?
So pathetic that people just feel bad for you and avoid you?

Low stats without a penalty should be avoided. In a dice game the math is important and there needs to be penalties or else other players feel cheated.

My experience has been that a player who wants to manipulate the stats also wants to outshine other people at the table. That is bad. If a player just wants to be better than everyone else, then it is not going to be a fun gaming experience while he sits at the table. There is just no way around that.

 

[korjik]

It is a problem with a point buy system that having a very low stat becomes a way to increase a different stat instead of a real handicap. Were it my game, a player who wanted to have a very low stat would have to give me a good in-game roleplaying reason for it, and I would probably let it happen if they did, but I would also try to make sure that the handicap was as much of a problem as the benefit in other places.

I do think there are some very interesting roleplay aspects that could come in. A character who is very low str, who has the fighter carry him on his back when climbing. A character who has a low con, and who always looks for salves and tonics to help keep him healthy. Low dex can be the classic clutz. Low int could be someone with a great memory, but who cant figure things out with alot of help. Low wis could be... well most characters Low cha could be Gregory House.

So, I dont have any real problem with the occasional 6 tho I doubt I would go lower, as long as the players realise that I will use it as a plot point in play.

 

[the Jester]

No, but I ban point buy in my games.

Low stats in point buy are serious abuse waiting to happen.

YMMV, obviously, and I'm in the minority here, but I strongly feel that you should roll yer damn stats.

 

[interwyrm]

Absolutely! Players should totally be able to play with multiple subnormal stats... but gain no additional benefit from it.

If you want to play a total clutz, weakling, pariah, or dunce that's fine. You don't get to be stronger better faster because of it.

 

[Dungeoneer]

I've been running a Gamma World mini-campaign (fun!) and it's proof-positive that the 4e system can withstand sub-par stats, as long as they're not in your primary and secondary attributes. One of my players is running a Felinoid Yeti with a 3 int and he's having a blast. Granted, he's not exactly acing his science checks, but we've got other players that do.

 

[Piratecat]

Right. I'm happy to let people lower their stats below 8 if they want to, but they gain no corresponding benefit. Tah dah! Everyone is happy.

 

[Ryujin]

No, but I ban point buy in my games.

Low stats in point buy are serious abuse waiting to happen.

YMMV, obviously, and I'm in the minority here, but I strongly feel that you should roll yer damn stats.

I allow point buy, but keep a minimum attribute cap in place. In the past I've had a few players who thought that they could sacrifice mental stats, to a point beyond "dump stat", and get away with it. One player found out, the hard way, that I don't play nice when that happens.

5 CHA Enforcer-type - "Tell me where the gems are, or I'll cut your lungs out!"

Helpless Hostage - "No."

5 CHA Enforcer starts carving up the weak, little guy, who promptly expires.

Enforcer's Player - "Why didn't he tell me what I wanted to know? He had to know I was going to kill him!"

Me - "How convincing do you think a guy with a 5 CHA is, no matter WHAT he's saying? He didn't believe you'd do it."

Yeah, I know; Cincture of the Dragon Spirit. Hate the thing.