Stealing

[Dash Dannigan]

I hope this is in the correct forum, if not, could a Mod move it, please?

In my campaign that I DM I have a player that has dumped a lot of skill points into move silently, bluff, hide, diplomancy, tumble, and use magic device (not disable device) and is going all willy nilly stealing things from stores, then selling them to other stores, using his diplomancy and bluff skill to get the best price possible. At the present time he is -significantly- ahead in net worth compared to the other characters. I am just now seeing how the thieve's guild and other organized crime rings can stomp down on some of this, but are there any suggestions for how to curb, or at least control, this? Traps, guard systems, security systems, extradimensional storage places, whatever. I just have trouble making up significant (but not necessarily impenetrable; he -has- put effort into this) defenses on the spot, and definitely not hard and fast numbers.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Eltern

Um, no offense but does this guy have any skill ranks in Sleight of Hand?? This should always be opposed to Spot skills of all persons in the store. Someone's bound to roll a 20 or he's bound to roll low. So once he's got it now he has to stash it on his person so tha's another Sleight of Hand check (to conceal item on person) so that's another set of opposed spot rolls. Eventually this guy is going to get caught. Simple as that.

Besides everyone knows that the real valuable stuff is underneath a glass case or lock and key. Been in a jewelry store lately? Simply substitue all the jewelry for magic itmes and walla, D&D store...

 

[Umbran]

There's something simple to note here. At least by the DMG standards, a really big metropolis is about 25,000 people. You can fit that many people into a modern stadium.

Now, he's working among only a small subset of those people - shopkeepers. Meaning he's got a limited market. There are only so many people in the city who will buy aparticular thing. Eventually, it will get around what he's doing, and they will stop buying his stolen goods. Bluff and Diplomacy are nice, but they don't overcome everything. If there's been a Merchant's Guild meeting that mentions him, he suddenly has nobody to sell to.

 

[d4]

Why should you curb it?

because its disruptive to the game? because this character now has significantly more treasure than the other PCs, which skews the balance of the party?

how can he be doing anything wrong?

if he's pissing off the other players and/or the DM, i'd say he's doing something wrong.

 

[Dirigible]

d4;

because its disruptive to the game? because this character now has significantly more treasure than the other PCs, which skews the balance of the party?

How is that different from a fighter who beats up monsters and keeps their treasure? For a shoplifter, vendors are his dungeon and assistants his wandering monsters. He takes the risk; to the victor the spoils.

if he's pissing off the other players and/or the DM, i'd say he's doing something wrong

If the DM didn't state this kind of behaviour was off limits beforehand, he don't get to fairly compain now. It doens't even have to be an official statement; every group has customs that have grown up over it's time together. Is this player new? Maybe he doesn;t know the customs. I heard nothing to suggest he was new, however. So, either he is nknowling going against the habits of the group, or he's trying a new character concept/tactic and the DM didn't anticipate it and so is falling back on DMS1 : Block.

No offence, Eltern.

Oh, and as you seemed to enjoy taking my comments out of context, allow me to make a suggestion : It'll undermine my apparent coherence and competance even more if you slot my words in the middle of random phrases from Mein Kampf.

 

[d4]

How is that different from a fighter who beats up monsters and keeps their treasure?

it's not any different. if the fighter is keeping all the treasure to himself and not sharing it with the other PCs, there's still a problem.

If the DM didn't state this kind of behaviour was off limits beforehand, he don't get to fairly compain now.

why not? if it's disruptive, it's disruptive and should be stopped. just because the DM didn't specifically mention this particular behavior in advance doesn't mean he can't take steps to curb it now that it has appeared. so, "anything not specifically forbidden is allowed"? i don't play that way, and i doubt very many DMs do.

So, either he is nknowling going against the habits of the group, or he's trying a new character concept/tactic and the DM didn't anticipate it and so is falling back on DMS1 : Block.

if it's disruptive, why shouldn't he try to block it? i'm all for players springing new, innovative ideas/concepts/tactics on me, as long as they are helpful to the game. if a player blindsides me with something that is ruining my game, you better believe i'll take steps to see he doesn't keep it up.

Oh, and as you seemed to enjoy taking my comments out of context, allow me to make a suggestion : It'll undermine my apparent coherence and competance even more if you slot my words in the middle of random phrases from Mein Kampf.

excuse me?

 

[Shadeus]

A couple of different ideas:

1. Maybe the next store he robs is a front for one of the local thieves guilds. Or maybe the store owner is a vampire. That could lead to an interesting adventure.

2. Instead of intelligent items, you only need the magic mouth spell, which is one of its classic uses.

3. Use arcane lock for wizard store owners. No rogue will be able to get through that! Or make a 3rd-level variant of the spell so that non-wizards can use it with a password.

4. Use Creative Mountain Games' Potent Portals as a good way to defend a shop. It's got a plethora of good ideas.

5. Traps, traps, traps! Fire trap should be a standard in the DnD world, where people can walk through wall and teleportation is possible. Or glyph of warding is another easy one. If they are a good store owner, use deep slumber as a spell glyph so it only put them to sleep. Otherwise you can use the blast glyph, but I don't recommend this against thieves with evasion. Instead suggestion is another good one ("Why don't you go turn yourself into the authorities?") because it is a Will save.

6. Guards and Wards is the pinnacle of security. Use it on only the most heavily guarded areas.

 

[reiella]

I hope this is in the correct forum, if not, could a Mod move it, please?

In my campaign that I DM I have a player that has dumped a lot of skill points into move silently, bluff, hide, diplomancy, tumble, and use magic device (not disable device) and is going all willy nilly stealing things from stores, then selling them to other stores, using his diplomancy and bluff skill to get the best price possible. At the present time he is -significantly- ahead in net worth compared to the other characters. I am just now seeing how the thieve's guild and other organized crime rings can stomp down on some of this, but are there any suggestions for how to curb, or at least control, this? Traps, guard systems, security systems, extradimensional storage places, whatever. I just have trouble making up significant (but not necessarily impenetrable; he -has- put effort into this) defenses on the spot, and definitely not hard and fast numbers.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Eltern

I'm assuming these are store room thefts (since Shelf thefts would still require Sleight of Hand checks).

1) Remember that city merchants/etc don't have infinite money. He is depleting the city's wealth. Have some of the merchants start going out of business and having to take up the Serf-lifestyle due to the lost income (guilt trip I know, but possibly effective).
2) Remember that 'valuable' items (magic items, gems, jewelery) are often quite easily recogonizable (especially in a close-knit merchantile setting). Or "Hey, this golden chalice has Terrance's mark on it. Didn't he get robbed just a few days ago?"
3) Without disguise, it won't be too hard for the officials to track 'em down and comfront/detain him for questioning/trial.
4) If there isn't a merchant guild now, there will be after these incidents come to light.
5) Hook the rest of the party with investigating a rampant crime spree for an adventure.

I shy away from magical solutions to this situation, but here they are.
6) Cursed Items are hard to sell.
7) Divination Researh will break past any Disguise, and quickly make the thief's life difficult.

It is a problem, as in, the situation doesn't have a reasonable alternative, just like said Fighter would more than likly get in trouble for killing the same shopkeepers. Unless the game is "AnarchyQuest! NO COMPETANT LAW HERE!"

 

[Umbran]

Before people go ashing the DM in this case, remember - DMs are human, and sometimes make errors, and errors need to be corrected. In this case, the error was to allow so much wealth to be easily carried off.

Another simple solution now would to have the merchants realize that they are getting ripped off, and to put guards on their expensive merchandise. Or to simply stop carrying it very frequently. He cannot steal what isn't put in the shops by the DM.

 

[reiella]

Before people go ashing the DM in this case, remember - DMs are human, and sometimes make errors, and errors need to be corrected. In this case, the error was to allow so much wealth to be easily carried off.

Another simple solution now would to have the merchants realize that they are getting ripped off, and to put guards on their expensive merchandise. Or to simply stop carrying it very frequently. He cannot steal what isn't put in the shops by the DM.

Doh yea, I forgot a very obvious concept there .

Also another idea. Redesign the storeroom (wherever the items are being stolen from) to limit any potential hiding places (very ambient shadows, well lit). And remember even if you are casually watched, you cannot hide unless you create a diversion first (which it appears he likes to do with the Bluff skill you displayed).

Baring that, I would really just work on the 'social ramifications aspect' of the rampant theft. More of the Theives' Guild operatives will get caught, it will be harder to bribe out, the Guards undergo tougher training (say a level or two increase, with skill points plopped into Spot or Sense Motive). Cost to Purchase will increase, Price of Sale will decrease.

 

[Eltern]

Some more specifics for you: He's done this only 2 or 3 times, but has made off with large amounts of junk, which he then sells in a -different city- (Namely, Greyhawk vs Enstad). Yes, yes, I know all of you just said "Greyhawk?! He's trying to screw over the thieves' guild in -Greyhawk-?!" I'm going to get right on that, don't worry. Anyone got some specifics on that guild? He also basically breaks in a window, at night, into the storeroom, then teleports out. (Wand of teleport). I know there's all sorts of fun spells to impair teleport, but I'm trying to think how many merchants would actually have them?

Either way, he's probably going to have the Greyhawk TG on his butt very soon. Right after he saves the world (next session).

Thanks
Eltern