Stealth 4 Dummies

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the real question then becomes, is Fleeting Ghost broken if it indeed allows one to become hidden with just cover or concealment?

I read Fleeting Ghost that way initially, but was convinced I was in error.

Smeelbo

I guess I don't understand how it could be interpreted that way.

You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.

OK, so either you need NO concealment because the text does not mention any requirement to be concealed to make the Stealth check allowed by Fleeting Ghost, OR it is assumed that the normal stealth rules still apply, with the explicit exception of the movement penalties, in which case total concealment is required (or one of the other conditions which allows a stealth check normally).

If there is a way to interpret this to mean you can make a stealth check with normal concealment, I'm missing it

 

[Rughat]

Can folks confirm that the following is accurate?

..M
.XX
RXX

X = wall
M = monster
R = Rogue with deft strike

On the Rogue's last turn, he made a stealth check vs. monster's passive perception, and became hidden. On this turn, the Rogue Deft Strikes, moving two squares so he has line of sight, and throws a dagger at the monster. He is still considered hidden for this action, so he gets combat advantage. After the attack, the Rogue is no longer hidden, since he has no cover or concealment. The Rogue then take a move action, moves two squares back to where he started, and makes a stealth check to hide from the monster, against the monster's passive perception.

If the monster wants to try to find him, the monster has to use a minor action to make an active perception check - and since this is through a wall, the player could try and claim that there should be a +10 bonus to the DC (PHB, Pg 187) (I wouldn't grant that, but I can see the argument being made.)

Does that make sense? If so, then Deft Strike and corners are a ranged rogue's best friends.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Can folks confirm that the following is accurate?

..M
.XX
RXX

X = wall
M = monster
R = Rogue with deft strike

On the Rogue's last turn, he made a stealth check vs. monster's passive perception, and became hidden. On this turn, the Rogue Deft Strikes, moving two squares so he has line of sight, and throws a dagger at the monster. He is still considered hidden for this action, so he gets combat advantage. After the attack, the Rogue is no longer hidden, since he has no cover or concealment. The Rogue then take a move action, moves two squares back to where he started, and makes a stealth check to hide from the monster, against the monster's passive perception.

If the monster wants to try to find him, the monster has to use a minor action to make an active perception check - and since this is through a wall, the player could try and claim that there should be a +10 bonus to the DC (PHB, Pg 187) (I wouldn't grant that, but I can see the argument being made.)

Does that make sense? If so, then Deft Strike and corners are a ranged rogue's best friends.

Sure, it looks like the correct way to do it. There are a couple of things to note however. First is the question "how does the rogue know the monster is there?" This is kind of an odd issue in that if you don't have line of sight to an enemy, yet they are not hiding, then what do you know about them? Going by the (Errataized) box on pp281 you can make a perception check minor action to determine the location of the goblin. Presumably the errata on this section is intended to mean that check is unopposed (since the goblin isn't hiding) but that leaves the not entirely answered question of the DC for this roll...

My answer has been to simply assume any prudent monster that knows there are enemies in the area or otherwise wouldn't advertise itself will be essentially 'taking 10' on a stealth check.

The second consideration of course is that while the rogue can now dodge back around the corner and hide, it won't actually do him a lot of good. The goblin knows he's there. All it has to do is basically the same thing the rogue just did, move so that the wall doesn't block line of sight. It won't have combat advantage of course, but it can move up and attack, assuming the rogue is within its movement range.

 

[Smeelbo]

My initial logic was that Fleeting Ghost allowed you to move, then make a Stealth check, thus becoming hidden. Then in order to remain hidden, you had to have Cover or Concealment. That is, I read Fleeting Ghost as an exception overriding Becoming Hidden, whereas it is more likely to be an exception to Keeping Still. Because I missed the additional Stealth checks in Keeping Still, I thought that the only thing a Stealth check could accomplish was Becoming Hidden, that no roll was required to remain hidden. Therefore, the Stealth check at the end of the move for Fleeting Ghost could only be to become hidden.

Now I believe that Fleeting Ghost allows an At-Will Move Action that is an exception to Keeping Still, and unlike Secret Stride, does not apply to movement using any other actions, such as shifts, or attack actions that include moves.

The fact that the issue is in doubt with Customer Service does not surprise me at all.

Smeelbo

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My initial logic was that Fleeting Ghost allowed you to move, then make a Stealth check, thus becoming hidden. Then in order to remain hidden, you had to have Cover or Concealment. That is, I read Fleeting Ghost as an exception overriding Becoming Hidden, whereas it is more likely to be an exception to Keeping Still. Because I missed the additional Stealth checks in Keeping Still, I thought that the only thing a Stealth check could accomplish was Becoming Hidden, that no roll was required to remain hidden. Therefore, the Stealth check at the end of the move for Fleeting Ghost could only be to become hidden.

Now I believe that Fleeting Ghost allows an At-Will Move Action that is an exception to Keeping Still, and unlike Secret Stride, does not apply to movement using any other actions, such as shifts, or attack actions that include moves.

The fact that the issue is in doubt with Customer Service does not surprise me at all.

Smeelbo

Right. You have to make a new stealth roll if you move more than 2 squares.

Fleeting Ghost allows you to avoid the 'moved more than 2 squares' penalty to this check. That's all it does. You still have to roll a new stealth check, but you are a lot more likely to remain hidden.

Chameleon allows you to avoid being seen when you loose cover/concealment by making a new stealth check and staying hidden until the end of your next turn, which gives you the chance to either attack with CA or find some cover, etc.

Shadow Stride then allows you to cross an area lacking cover by making a stealth check, letting you flit from one area of cover to another without being revealed.

Seems like a pretty coherent set of abilities. If you have all three powers then you're going to be pretty darn good at staying hidden, even while moving. None of these powers can combine due to their action requirements.

I'll note there are also higher level hiding powers

Hide in Plain Sight is a 16th level encounter utility. This is the ultimate stealth power, you are simply invisible and there are NO conditions which will modify that. You have to start out hidden, but you can attack, shout, etc as long as you don't actually move, and as I read it cover/concealment is also irrelevant once the power is in effect.

Hide from the Light is a Daily 22nd level utility. This is very similar to Hide In Plain Sight except it allows movement of up to 2 squares per turn. Oddly it puts limitations on what attacks you can use (basic or at-will only) which the lower level encounter power does not. Doesn't seem really worth it, but so it is.

Ghost on the Wind is another one. This is an attack combined with a shift and going invisible. 25th level, but I can think of a few tricky ways to use this perhaps.

Impossible to Catch is the final one. This is a Master Infiltrator PP 12th level encounter utility. It actually is the really ultimate hide power, the text reads "You become invisible until the start of your next turn." Since it doesn't even mention Stealth at all one has to assume it works exactly like magical invisibility. Someone could notice you, but they would need to at least make a minor action Perception check to figure out where you are, or else move into your space.

MP might have some others, but all of these seem to mesh pretty well with the updated Stealth rule text, aside from a propensity for the wording to sometimes seemingly use hidden and invisible as if they are synonymous (which they are not).

 

[Tarrl]

I am still confused on the Chameleon!! I am a bit dim...

 

[nittanytbone]

I am still confused on the Chameleon!! I am a bit dim...

Chameleon is an immediate reaction, so it can only be used during other's turns. Its most useful for retaining your Hidden status when a monster comes around a corner.

Say you're ducking behind a corner to hide (total cover from the monster) then using Deft Strike to jump out from behind it and attack with CA. The monster may eventually come behind the corner to find you. Chameleon buys you basically one round before the monster sees you for sure.

 

[Skallgrim]

I am still confused on the Chameleon!! I am a bit dim...

I think that the name "Chameleon" throws most people off.

Note that you don't need cover or concealment to hide from enemies which aren't alert or expecting you.

Now think of Chameleon as kind of working like that.

You are hiding, and edging around and looking for a good goblin to shoot. Suddenly, a bugbear comes right around the corner and is heading towards you!

Now, you use "Chameleon". You freeze, crouched low to the ground. This isn't your regular stealth check, where you move slowly and quietly. You freeze every movement of your body, holding your breath and willing the bugbear not to notice.

He walks right by you, to your relief, and his chagrin, when you backstab him.

Once I had that cinematic image in my mind, it was easier for me to use and explain Chameleon to my players. The rogue uses stealth to hide. Normally, when someone "breaks" the conditions for hiding, the gig is up and the rogue is spotted. Some rogues, however, have brass balls and nerves of steel. They can just freeze and hide in plain sight (not that power). Those rogues have Chameleon.

In effect, Chameleon allows the rogue, on a sucessful roll, to ignore the restrictions on Hiding which require cover or concealment. The interrupt is there because the Rogue can't simply will himself invisible. He has to have been in a good place to hide first, and then "freezes" to remain hidden.

 

[Oompa]

Can folks confirm that the following is accurate?

..M
.XX
RXX

X = wall
M = monster
R = Rogue with deft strike

On the Rogue's last turn, he made a stealth check vs. monster's passive perception, and became hidden. On this turn, the Rogue Deft Strikes, moving two squares so he has line of sight, and throws a dagger at the monster. He is still considered hidden for this action, so he gets combat advantage. After the attack, the Rogue is no longer hidden, since he has no cover or concealment. The Rogue then take a move action, moves two squares back to where he started, and makes a stealth check to hide from the monster, against the monster's passive perception.

If the monster wants to try to find him, the monster has to use a minor action to make an active perception check - and since this is through a wall, the player could try and claim that there should be a +10 bonus to the DC (PHB, Pg 187) (I wouldn't grant that, but I can see the argument being made.)

Does that make sense? If so, then Deft Strike and corners are a ranged rogue's best friends.

Your rogue is doing good The rogue in the party i dm, uses the same tactics, using walls for full cover, pop out and shoot..

The rogue is designed to have CA -> Sneak Attack every round and this works good for ranged rogues..

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Note that you don't need cover or concealment to hide from enemies which aren't alert or expecting you.

I guess I am not sure where this assertion comes from. The Stealth rules specifically state that you need total concealment or superior cover in order to hide (use Stealth). There does not appear to be a rule about "enemies which are not alert". DMG 36 does define alertness levels for monsters, but in terms of stealth all it does is provide modifiers to the perception check for the monsters. The last part of the section, on p37 provides some general rules for handling the 'party approaching a door' scenario. The upshot of this whole section is that lack of alertness on the monster's part never guarantees that someone is hidden, even a distracted monster will always see an opponent in the clear unless the DM rules that it is 'looking elsewhere'. In the spirit of DMG 37 it stands to reason that monsters would get a passive or active perception check in all cases.

This whole matter, the state of someone out of sight but not using Stealth, is really the biggest grey area left in the whole hiding/Stealth mechanics. The DMG seems to imply that one can effectively 'be hidden' without an actual Stealth roll if there is blocking terrain like a door or corner, but that still begs the question of what the DC is for monsters to detect them. A DC25 is stated for monsters hearing a party "moving at normal speed and making no attempt at stealth" through a door. Generalizing this would perhaps give the monsters a DC20 or even DC15 when a corner is involved. The odd part about all this is that were the PCs to use Stealth to approach a door, they might well actually get LESS than a 25 on their roll (use the worst character's stealth skill, +5 for the intervening door). Thus (at low levels anyway) a party would likely be better off just walking up to the door and not trying to sneak.

My feeling is that this is the one area of stealth which could profitably use some better house rules. The numbers in the 'listening through a door' table at the very end of the section also seem a bit oddball. Shouldn't a door present a symmetrical situation WRT a party? One way to look at that is the DC25 for monsters to perceive a party is the same as the DC25 in the table where detecting "Quite conversation, whispers" is DC25. Thus extrapolating would give us a DC10 if the party is engaging in 'normal conversation'. The only part of that table which really bothers me is the last entry DC35 for 'battle preparations'. Seems odd that arming for battle makes you likely significantly stealthier than actual use of Stealth skill would.

I would be tempted to recast this entire issue as simply "you use your stealth skill and there are modifiers based on the activity you are performing". That would get rid of the situations where it is actually a bad idea to use Stealth.