Stealth and Shadow Walk

[kugelkj]

I'm sure this has been hashed over elsewhere but given the forums are down I can't leverage that resource...

I'm trying to compile a set of stealth strategies using just stealth, then adding the rogue at-will utilities, and the warlock shadow walk.

Specifically, when a warlock gains concealment from Shadow Walk, do they have concealment for the entire move (including the two squares prior to triggering the power)?

Additionally, I still do not have answer for a player who makes this argument:

Being hidden means you are invisible and silent. Invisibility means you have total concealment. Remaining hidden requires concealment.

If the PC hides (elf cleric multiclass ranger trained in stealth, 18 dex) before combat beings, what is to stop the player from freely creeping around (move less than 2, don't speak above a whisper, don't attack) without having to make a new stealth check? The invisible effect provides the very concealment (total even) that he needs to remain hidden, even while in plain LoS. He wants to use stealth to scout out a room (identifying enemy locations, terrain, traps, etc) prior to combat.

I tried countering that the designers could not have intended first level PCs (a clerics no less) to have this level of extraordinary sneakiness. And that the rogue utility powers suggest this, even though the rules are clear (even after errata) that being hidden = invisible = total concealment and 'remaining hidden' requires concealment.

does anyone else see this as a problem?

cheers

 

[Tai]

By the PHB2 definition, being invisible doesn't give you concealment. Therefore, if they step out of concealment, they stop being hidden.

EDIT: actually, my bad, it does... Just not in the rules box

 

[Ryujin]

You need superior cover or total concealment in order to make a stealth check in combat, so Shadow Walk is ineffective for this purpose. Different story completely if the Warlock uses one of his powers that generates invisibility. Invisibility is generally of very limited duration or drops when you attack.

For most characters the moment that they attack they'll be revealing themselves, so they lose stealth. Rogues have a way around this.

 

[relmskye]

It seems fairly clear to me that being hidden is not intended to be self-perpetuating. The Keep Out Of Sight clause under the new stealth rules very heavily imply a need for ENVIRONMENTAL cover or concealment. Especially when you consider that the requirement for concealment, cover, and/or lack of line-of-sight can all be waived outside of combat if the enemy in question is distracted.

To conclude: Outside of combat, a character can sneak around a pair of arguing goblins without the need for environmental cover. Were these goblins were paying attention to their surroundings, however, if this same character steps out in front of them in plain sight, he will get seen no matter how stealthy he is.

 

[kugelkj]

It seems fairly clear to me that being hidden is not intended to be self-perpetuating. The Keep Out Of Sight clause under the new stealth rules very heavily imply a need for ENVIRONMENTAL cover or concealment.

I don't disagree. But the Stealth skill clearly states-

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment (gained from invisibility) to remain hidden...

Its circular, I know, but nothing in the Stealth rules state otherwise

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, the hidden condition makes you "invisible to the enemy", but notice that is not really quite the same thing as being literally invisible. Nor is being literally invisible quite the same thing as being hidden. Its a case where they use the same term because it allows the rules to assign effects more easily. Hidden characters get the same benefits as invisible characters do, but they still have to maintain that status according to the stealth rules.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the PC hides (elf cleric multiclass ranger trained in stealth, 18 dex) before combat beings, what is to stop the player from freely creeping around (move less than 2, don't speak above a whisper, don't attack) without having to make a new stealth check?

Don't you have to make the check whenever you perform the action (move)? And if he's not taking actual Move Actions before combat begins, then your comment about "less than 2" and so forth becomes irrelevant.

 

[kugelkj]

Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements...

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check...

This says to me if you move less than 2 squares (ie creep) your initial roll applies until you take an action that requires a new check... which as far as I can tell is only if you move more than 2 squares. If you break any other condition (keeping silent, don't attack) you don't remain hidden and you can't become hidden again during that turn.

As far as taking actions are concerned, it was a separate issue all together i.e. if the monsters are aware (they heard battle sounds in the next room but stayed put or a fleeing monster from another encounter tipped them off or they are just generally suspicious or are on patrol) and are making active perception checks... where is the PC when/if the monsters find you out?

I did kind of mini rounds involving just the scouting PC and the monsters... it was a mess and no one was happy

All of that aside... does the warlock have concealment for the first 2 squares of movement before triggering shadow walk?

 

[Samir]

Unless I'm missing something, this looks like it might lead to a loophole. Being hidden apparently grants you concealment.

Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Concealment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page 81).

A variety of powers and other effects can render you
invisible, effectively giving you total concealment.
INVISIBLE
✦ You can’t be seen by normal forms of vision.
✦ You have combat advantage against any enemy that can’t see you.
✦ You don’t provoke opportunity attacks from enemies that can’t see you.

As for the Shadow Walk question, as I understand the warlock does not gain concealment until he has moved 3 squares. E.g., if he moves 6 squares, he doesn't have concealment for the first two squares but does for the last four.

 

[Ryujin]

As for the Shadow Walk question, as I understand the warlock does not gain concealment until he has moved 3 squares. E.g., if he moves 6 squares, he doesn't have concealment for the first two squares but does for the last four.

As I read it you would need to have physical concealment for the first 2 squares of movement, as you don't gain concealment until you have moved 3 squares. As the concealed condition is attained until the end of your next round you could maintain concealment by continuing to move at least 3 squares per round.