Stealth, hiding, invisibility and miniatures

[draquila]

Sorry for these noob questions. I've recently gotten my copy of PHB, and I've read the errata, but I am still pretty confused about the stealth rules.

So as I understand it, once you break stealth, and unless there is some way to get total cover/concealment, there is no way to go back into hiding, no matter how high your stealth skill is, right?

Also, how does invisibility, blindness, total concealment, etc work with miniatures? In the "Targetting what you can't see" section, it mentions the need to "guess what space it occupies". But if you're using miniatures, the location is right there on the board. Is the DM supposed to remove invisible creatures from the board and keep track of where it is secretly? What if some PCs have darkvision and some without? Do you then show or hide the miniatures?

Also, there is a differentiation between "invisible creature hidden from you" and "invisible creature not hidden from you". What is the difference?

Is there a good guide to the 4e stealth rules somewhere? Because the PHB isn't helping.

 

[NMcCoy]

The stealth rules have been entirely reworked (in large part because the PHB stealth rules have the very issues you bring up). Excerpted from WotC's PHB update:

[sblock=The new Stealth rules]Stealth: The check is usually at the end of a move
action, but it can be at the end of any of the crea-
ture’s actions that involve the creature moving.
! Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If
multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check
is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception
check. If you move more than 2 squares during the
move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth
check. If you run, the penalty is –10.
! Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check
against an enemy only if you have superior cover
or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re
outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat,
the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check
against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have
superior cover or total concealment and aren’t out-
side the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy
might be focused on something in a different direc-
tion, allowing you to sneak up.
! Success: You are hidden, which means you are
silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Conceal-
ment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page
281).
! Failure: You can try again at the end of another
move action.
! Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as
you meet these requirements.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover
or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain
hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior
cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of
sight, but you do need some degree of cover or con-
cealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another
creature as cover to remain hidden.
Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper
or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t
remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares
during an action, you must make a new Stealth
check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is
–10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats
your check result, you don’t remain hidden from
that enemy.
Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain
hidden.
! Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action
that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain
the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the
action. You can’t become hidden again as part of
that same action.
! Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on
its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception
check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t
make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from
that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your
space, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.[/sblock]

In short: You can make a Stealth roll when you end a movement with total concealment or cover. If your move was more than 2 squares, you take a -5, and if you ran it's a -10. You become Hidden from any creature whose passive Perception you beat, which means they can't see or hear you and don't know what square you're in, and you get combat advantage against them. If you attack, have no cover/concealment, make noise, or an enemy tries to enter your space, you stop being hidden after the action is resolved. If you move more than 2 squares you need to make another check to stay hidden, with the usual penalties for moving. Allies don't count as cover for stealth purposes.

Non-obvious notes: being invisible doesn't automatically make you Hidden; you get most of the benefits, but need to Stealth if you want to conceal your location. Same goes for Blinded - you still know where creatures are unless they Stealth (though when they do, your Perception is at -10).

 

[draquila]

The stealth rules have been entirely reworked (in large part because the PHB stealth rules have the very issues you bring up). Excerpted from WotC's PHB update:

As I said, I've read the errata, and still don't get the rules!

Non-obvious notes: being invisible doesn't automatically make you Hidden; you get most of the benefits, but need to Stealth if you want to conceal your location. Same goes for Blinded - you still know where creatures are unless they Stealth (though when they do, your Perception is at -10).

OK this answers my last question. But I still don't understand, if a creature has total concealment and hidden, how its location is concealed from the actual player on a battle grid with miniatures. Especially when it may be hidden from one player but not another.

 

[NMcCoy]

There are a few solutions. The easiest involves the fact that talking is a free action, and a PC can trivially point out the location of a hidden monster that an ally can't see. Voila, they now know what square to target, and the rest is down to the usual rules for total concealment.

Other than that, your best bet is to have players that are very good at separating player from character knowledge.

 

[pemerton]

If a creature is invisible and is hidden, then (i) other characters have to guess where it is via the "targetting a square" rule, and (ii) it has total concealment to those who can't detect invisible via truesight, tremorsense etc (ie -5 to hit with ranged and melee even if you guess the right square).

If a creature is invisible but not hidden, then (i) above does not apply - other characters know its location - but (ii) does apply - ie it still enjoys total concealment unless truesight etc applies.

As to actually concealing on the battlegrid - that's a tricky issue and I'm sure different tables do it different ways. Assuming none of the PCs are aware of the creature's location, I'll not place it and keep my own note of where it is.

If some but not all the PCs are aware of its location, then what I do depends a bit - and remember this will come up quite a bit, not only with Darkvision or similar but also if some PCs have better Perception and so notice creatures that are hidden from others. If all the PCs who are likely to interact with it are aware of its location, I'll just put it on the mat. If only some are, I'm more likely to take the relevant players aside and let them know what they see and where, but not actually place a miniature. Once those players have taken their turn, I'll tend to place the miniature because at that point even the PCs from whom the creature is hidden know where to target their attacks - namely, into the same square as their more perceptive colleagues attacked!

 

[DEFCON 1]

To add onto what pemerton wrote...

If you (as DM) have a monster miniature on the board that you intend to move into cover or total concealment so they can make a Stealth check to become Hidden... a good habit to get into is to roll that Stealth check BEFORE moving the miniature on the game board. This way... you know ahead of time before you move the miniature whether or not the PCs know where it is (via Passive Perception). If most/all do not see the Hidden monster... then you can move the mini on the board up until they reach the cover or concealing terrain... then take the mini from the board and just count in your head the remaining spaces of movement the monster has. By doing this... all the PCs have to go on is where the monster entered the cover/concealment and then they have no idea where it moved after that. This makes the "guessing the square the enemy is in" check an actual guess on the PC's part. You then just have to remember (or note down) which square the Hidden monster is in.

 

[MrMyth]

Sorry for these noob questions. I've recently gotten my copy of PHB, and I've read the errata, but I am still pretty confused about the stealth rules.

So as I understand it, once you break stealth, and unless there is some way to get total cover/concealment, there is no way to go back into hiding, no matter how high your stealth skill is, right?

Unless you have a special rule or power that lets you hide without total concealment, you are correct. Note that some characters might create total concealment on their own, such a Drow creating a zone of darkness, or a rogue blinding an enemy. Obviously the opponent cannot see you during the effect (darkness or blindness), but this also allows you to then make a stealth check and remain stealthed, provided you find regular cover or concealment to be hidden in when the darkness/blindness ends.

Also, how does invisibility, blindness, total concealment, etc work with miniatures? In the "Targetting what you can't see" section, it mentions the need to "guess what space it occupies". But if you're using miniatures, the location is right there on the board. Is the DM supposed to remove invisible creatures from the board and keep track of where it is secretly? What if some PCs have darkvision and some without? Do you then show or hide the miniatures?

It all depends on how the DM wants to run it. If a creature goes invisible, and succeeds at moving quietly enough that no PC is aware of what space the creature is in, the DM might remove the mini and force the players to guess. Alternatively, they might leave the mini and just be open about the situation: "I don't want to keep track of where he is, so I'm leaving it there. It is up to you guys to declare where your character would attack without using the Out of Character knowledge of where the enemy actually is."

If some PCs can see him and others cannot, usually the DM will reveal the location - after all, in most cases, the ones who can see him can call out his location to those who can't. The ones who can't see him still have to deal with total concealment, but they can at least target his square.

Also, there is a differentiation between "invisible creature hidden from you" and "invisible creature not hidden from you". What is the difference?

I don't have the rules in front of me, but I'm guessing awareness of its location. Even if you can't see it, you might make a Perception check to hear where it is standing - so it isn't hidden from you, but you still can't see it.

 

[KarinsDad]

The easiest involves the fact that talking is a free action, and a PC can trivially point out the location of a hidden monster that an ally can't see. Voila, they now know what square to target, and the rest is down to the usual rules for total concealment.

How does one do that?

Thundarr: "He's over there."
Princess Ariel: "Where?"
Thundarr: "Over there."
Princess Ariel: "Where over there?"
Thundarr: "Over there by the crate."
Princess Ariel: "Which crate? There's five crates over there."

The point is, if you are going to allow the PCs to use free actions to talk and tell allies which exact square an NPC is hidden in, you might as well just leave the miniature on the board and assume the super accurate conversation occurs, and have the PCs auto-know what other PCs know.

 

[MrMyth]

How does one do that?

Thundarr: "He's over there."
Princess Ariel: "Where?"
Thundarr: "Over there."
Princess Ariel: "Where over there?"
Thundarr: "Over there by the crate."
Princess Ariel: "Which crate? There's five crates over there."

The point is, if you are going to allow the PCs to use free actions to talk and tell allies which exact square an NPC is hidden in, you might as well just leave the miniature on the board and assume the super accurate conversation occurs, and have the PCs auto-know what other PCs know.

I think that's what he was suggesting. Acknowledge that as long as one PC knows what square the enemy is in, they all do.

Yes, not all PCs might be able to effectively convey that information. But the point at which you are micromanaging or trying to enforce how accurately a PC can describe things... well, that's a tricky road to go down.

If no one knows where it is, either remove it from the map and let them guess, or keep it on the board and rely on the honor system.

 

[Solvarn]

I think that's what he was suggesting. Acknowledge that as long as one PC knows what square the enemy is in, they all do.

Yes, not all PCs might be able to effectively convey that information. But the point at which you are micromanaging or trying to enforce how accurately a PC can describe things... well, that's a tricky road to go down.

If no one knows where it is, either remove it from the map and let them guess, or keep it on the board and rely on the honor system.

They may not also be able to accurately obtain information either. I remember one time we had a TPK - 1. The barbarian survived. In the middle of nowhere. With road signs pointing him in the right direction. And he couldn't read. Good times.

Keep a sheet of graph paper handy. If you need to have a monster go invisible, just track its location on the graph paper and not on the mini board.