D&D 5E Stealth in 5E

[I'm A Banana]

See this is one of the reasons I liked 4e, the rules were codified extremely well. Ever since the first couple play-tests it was obvious a lot of rules in 5e come down to 'we leave it up to the GM'.

Hahaha, I'm afraid that IMXP, the stealth rules in 4e were just as counter-intuitive (ultimately because they work basically the same way: invisible is not the same as hidden, both are distinct states in 4e). I'm reminding players that invisible != hidden CONSTANTLY. Generally, I'd agree with the sentiment, but in this area, 4e's got just as many problems as 5e.

Stealth isn't something that's easy to get right in a natural way without getting waaaay too detailed for ease of use.

'course 5e has a little edge, because no rule is simpler than "If the DM allows it, you can, and otherwise, you can't." Since it's not a "load-bearing" mechanic, there's a lot less riding on it in any particular instance.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I wouldn't be surprised if the DMG has a section saying "The stealth rules in the PHB are intentionally vague to give you more latitude. Here are a few ways you can run it..."

 

[Dausuul]

Hahaha, I'm afraid that IMXP, the stealth rules in 4e were just as counter-intuitive (ultimately because they work basically the same way: invisible is not the same as hidden, both are distinct states in 4e). I'm reminding players that invisible != hidden CONSTANTLY. Generally, I'd agree with the sentiment, but in this area, 4e's got just as many problems as 5e.

Stealth isn't something that's easy to get right in a natural way without getting waaaay too detailed for ease of use.

What grinds my gears here is that the actual rules are solid. Now that I understand them, they make sense, they're easy to use, they require minimal adjudication from the DM (you just have to determine whether there's a possibility of detection, which is usually an obvious "yes" or "no"). But the presentation of those rules is just horribly confusing.

How I would rewrite them:

Stealth

If you are stealthy to a creature, it can't detect you. It doesn't know where you are, or even whether you're there at all.

To be stealthy, you must first be concealed, meaning that you are entirely or almost entirely out of view of the creature that might observe you. Being in a heavily obscured area, being behind an opaque barrier, or being invisible are all ways of gaining concealment.

In some cases, being concealed is all you need to be stealthy. However, if there is a possibility you might be detected despite concealment (e.g., your footsteps might be heard, or your concealment is not perfect), the DM may call for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. This check is opposed by the passive Perception of each creature that might detect you. If you succeed, you are stealthy to those creatures. If you fail, you are detected and your general location known.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What grinds my gears here is that the actual rules are solid. Now that I understand them, they make sense, they're easy to use, they require minimal adjudication from the DM (you just have to determine whether there's a possibility of detection, which is usually an obvious "yes" or "no"). But the presentation of those rules is just horribly confusing.

How I would rewrite them:

Stealth

If you are stealthy to a creature, it can't detect you. It doesn't know where you are, or even whether you're there at all.

To be stealthy, you must first be concealed, meaning that you are entirely or almost entirely out of view of the creature that might observe you. Being in a heavily obscured area, being behind an opaque barrier, or being invisible are all ways of gaining concealment.

In some cases, being concealed is all you need to be stealthy. However, if there is a possibility you might be detected despite concealment (e.g., your footsteps might be heard, or your concealment is not perfect), the DM may call for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. This check is opposed by the passive Perception of each creature that might detect you. If you succeed, you are stealthy to those creatures. If you fail, you are detected and your general location known.

So, there's two instances that would still be confusing there.

For one, it's not clear if you lose concealment or not if your location is known. If I cough from behind the bushes, do the bushes then do bupkiss to protect me? If I step on a twig while invisible, does that trump my invisibility?

For two (and here's where the rules usually get pretty sticky), what happens if I move on my turn from a concealed location to one that isn't concealed? Do I retain stealth while I move up to the enemy and stab them, or am I spotted the moment I move out from concealment? What about if I run between two concealed locations? And can't a creature who sees me run then just guess where I am no matter how hard I hide?

 

[Dausuul]

So, there's two instances that would still be confusing there.

For one, it's not clear if you lose concealment or not if your location is known. If I cough from behind the bushes, do the bushes then do bupkiss to protect me? If I step on a twig while invisible, does that trump my invisibility?

You certainly don't lose concealment, which is purely about whether you are visible or not. You might lose stealthiness at DM discretion.

For two (and here's where the rules usually get pretty sticky), what happens if I move on my turn from a concealed location to one that isn't concealed? Do I retain stealth while I move up to the enemy and stab them, or am I spotted the moment I move out from concealment? What about if I run between two concealed locations? And can't a creature who sees me run then just guess where I am no matter how hard I hide?

Right - forgot about that. As I recall, the PHB language about that was pretty solid and could be used mostly as-is, just swapping in "stealthy" for "hidden."

 

[Mistwell]

The whole of the rule seems to be this: If you're unseen you can make a check to hide, opposed by the passive or active perception of your target. The DM should use common sense to determine whether you're seen or not in any given circumstances. If the DM is in doubt about a corner case, use the advantage/disadvantage rules to address the doubt.

 

[Rabbitbait]

what happens if I move on my turn from a concealed location to one that isn't concealed? Do I retain stealth while I move up to the enemy and stab them, or am I spotted the moment I move out from concealment? What about if I run between two concealed locations? And can't a creature who sees me run then just guess where I am no matter how hard I hide?

That's where I like 5e. The DM can look at what is happening and decide whether it is realistic that you would remain hidden, or have a chance to remain hidden in those circumstances. I think the way I'll play it is:

If an enemy is deliberately looking in your direction and you move out of cover. You are no longer hidden.
If an enemy might be looking in your direction, but might be looking elsewhere, you roll a stealth check with disadvantage - you probably won't remain hidden if you aren't fantastically sneaky
If an enemy is being distracted by something in another direction, you roll a stealth check
If an enemy is deliberately looking in another direction, you roll a stealth check with advantage - barring some unfortunate accident you are likely to remain hidden.
If you don't move and just stay hidden then you remain hidden.


That'll be a kind of guideline for me. But it will be adjusted by circumstance. Rulings, not rules. I like it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think for me, if you are already hidden, you remain hidden if you leave cover, but you'll lose the state if you end your turn not hidden. So you can run up behind someone who doesn't know where you are and stab 'em in the jimmies, but then they know where you are. Or you can move between locations that grant cover without being seen if you are already hidden.

 

[Rabbitbait]

I think for me, if you are already hidden, you remain hidden if you leave cover, but you'll lose the state if you end your turn not hidden. So you can run up behind someone who doesn't know where you are and stab 'em in the jimmies, but then they know where you are. Or you can move between locations that grant cover without being seen if you are already hidden.

I like the idea that if you leave cover to sneak up on someone to stab them, there is a chance you might scuff your foot, step on a twig or do something else that alerts them at the last minute that someone is coming up behind them. That will add tension to the game, and tension is good.

 

[Dausuul]

How about: As soon as you break concealment, make another Stealth check. If you succeed, you remain stealthy until the end of your turn, at which point you lose stealth unless you've regained concealment. If you fail, you lose stealth immediately.