Stealth in Combat

[zoroaster100]

Leugren, I think your ruling makes sense. I think I will use that as my ruling next weekend unless we get clarification that is different from WOTC before then.

 

[Ziana]

Here's the answers I got from CSRs earlier:

Answers from Evan T. (Wizard CSR)
Can ranged attackers, eg. rogues and rangers, use cover (eg, walls, pillars) or concealment (eg. bushes, darkness) to make stealth attacks during combat?
You can make a stealth attempt with any action that you do. So, if you have cover or concealment, you can attempt to hide yourself as part of your attack. If you are successful, then you are given combat advantage against your opponents who can not see you.

Is it part of the design intention of 4E that players are encouraged to make use of tactics that can grant Combat Advantage, and using terrain to make stealth attacks is intended and encouraged by the rules?
This stealth system was implemented to make cover and concealment useful to players, and make the environment more interactive.

Answer from Joe (Wizards CSR) 19/06/2008
So the core question here that I would like to confirm is: each time a player attempts a stealth attack during combat (which could be each round for each stealther), the player's stealth check DC is:
a) the passive perception of their target (since this is the only monster they need to be hidden against)
b) an active perception roll for the target (requiring a roll from both player and DM, each turn)
c) the passive perception of all monsters in range, whether they're involved in this attack or not
d) the active perception checks of all monsters in range (requiring multiple rolls from the DM each turn)

The Stealth check is opposed by a Perception check from each observer. To gain combat advantage on the attack, the attacker only needs to succeed vs the target, though the DM can of course play around with this. Unless characters are actively being perceptive, use the passive value.
The DM will always make the final ruling on any issue that arises.

 

[Ziana]

1. The rogue gets to make a Stealth check as part of the move action that got him to the position of cover. He get a -5 modifier to the roll if he moved more than 2 squares.

Since the move begins in the open, stealth isn't possible. He's seen by default. It's not until he gets to cover and attempts a stealth action that a roll is needed.

2. Each kobold opposes this check with an active Perception roll. If there were 40 kobolds, I'd probably just use their passive Perception scores, but since there are only two, I'd go ahead and roll for each.

Per the CSR response above, normally passive applies, unless the creatures are making active checks. DM has discretion of course. However, in combat if a creature is focussed on their immediate target, it makes sense they're not simultaneously watching for the sniper in the bushes.

3. If the kobold he is targeting with his attack fails his Perception roll, I'd grant the rogue combat advantage against that kobold. The other kobold's perception roll doesn't factor into this equation at all.

Right. If others spot him however, they can run over & kick his ass.

4. Since the rogue attacked, I'd rule that he is no longer hidden, so the kobolds can fire back at him with the standard -2 penalty to hit for cover.

The rogue can attempt to make stealth attacks each turn he's behind cover. The kobolds are aware of his position so as you say can make attacks against him with the cover penalty, or run to his spot.

 

[Leugren]

Since the move begins in the open, stealth isn't possible. He's seen by default. It's not until he gets to cover and attempts a stealth action that a roll is needed.

I believe, but I'm not certain, that we are both saying the same thing here. As long as the kobolds have full line of sight on him, he cannot attempt a Stealth check. During his move action, as soon as he reaches a position that offers him cover, he can attempt a Stealth check. Thus, my statement that "the rogue gets to make a Stealth check as part of the move action that got him to the position of cover" holds true.

 

[Leugren]

Per the CSR response above, normally passive applies, unless the creatures are making active checks. DM has discretion of course. However, in combat if a creature is focussed on their immediate target, it makes sense they're not simultaneously watching for the sniper in the bushes.

For me, the passive vs. active debate comes down to a matter of pure pragmatism. I don't want to roll 40 Perception checks if there are 40 combatants on the field, so I just rule that everyone is effectively taking 10 on their rolls which produces a completely average result for each creature; no really high rolls and no really low rolls. This also has the added advantage that I don't have to keep track of which individual opponents actually made their rolls and which ones failed. Tracking is instead by creature type, since all creatures of the same basic type have the same passive Perception score (e.g. all of the Kobold Skirmishers succeed, but all of the Kobold Minions fail).

This arguably has the downside of making things easier or more predictable for the rogue, but I'm willing to sacrifice predictability for the sake of keeping the game from grinding to a screeching halt. If there are just a few opponents involved, I'll go ahead and make one roll for each to keep the rogue from getting too complacent.

 

[Ziana]

I believe, but I'm not certain, that we are both saying the same thing here.

Sorry, it may seem minor, but there's a difference in how we see this. Per p188: "Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

As long as the kobolds have full line of sight on him, he cannot attempt a Stealth check.

Right. His move action cannot be done stealthily. Per the unblocked line of sight rule, he's automatically seen moving into the cover.

During his move action, as soon as he reaches a position that offers him cover, he can attempt a Stealth check. Thus, my statement that "the rogue gets to make a Stealth check as part of the move action that got him to the position of cover" holds true.

He can make a stealth check as part of an action (eg his attack) once he's behind cover. The move action can't be done stealthily, so the stealth check isn't part of the move action or related to it.

It's a question of which action is being done stealthily. Assume for a moment that the rogue had already performed a standard action, and only has a move action remaining. He can move his speed to cover, but there's no stealth involved, as he's in plain line of sight.

On his next turn, he may attempt a stealth attack, using his cover to prevent his target from seeing him attack.

And yes, dealing with passive checks for a crowd makes sense. The exception may be is if an enemy skirmisher or two decides the rogue is a threat, and goes into the bushes or whatever to find him.

 

[Ophidimancer]

He can make a stealth check as part of an action (eg his attack) once he's behind cover. The move action can't be done stealthily, so the stealth check isn't part of the move action or related to it.

Then my question would be whether or not you'd penalize that Stealth check for movement or not. I mean, you didn't move as part of your Stealth check, right?

 

[Ziana]

Right. The stealth check is part of the attack, and his previous move wasn't stealthy, so there's no penalty for the movement.

Where a stealth movement penalty applies, is in a situation where a rogue is moving through the bushes, trying to remain unseen, but moves 6 instead of 2. The enemies have a greater chance of noticing him move at that time.

 

[Ophidimancer]

Hmm . . then with a warlock and Shadow Walk you could stealth anywhere with no penalty as long as you let yourself be seen during your move action?

 

[Ravingdork]

Answer from Joe (Wizards CSR) 19/06/2008
So the core question here that I would like to confirm is: each time a player attempts a stealth attack during combat (which could be each round for each stealther), the player's stealth check DC is:
a) the passive perception of their target (since this is the only monster they need to be hidden against)
b) an active perception roll for the target (requiring a roll from both player and DM, each turn)
c) the passive perception of all monsters in range, whether they're involved in this attack or not
d) the active perception checks of all monsters in range (requiring multiple rolls from the DM each turn)

The Stealth check is opposed by a Perception check from each observer. To gain combat advantage on the attack, the attacker only needs to succeed vs the target, though the DM can of course play around with this. Unless characters are actively being perceptive, use the passive value.
The DM will always make the final ruling on any issue that arises.

I'm having difficulty deciphering Joe's answer. Does the player roll against the enemies' (rolle) Perception checks? Their passive Perception? Or either one depending on GM's discretion?