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Stealth in Combat

ozziewolf

First Post
Barzhac said:
This entire dialoge tells me that both Fighters and Rogues are broken. Fighters have no powers - none - that they can use with a ranged attack. Rogues not only do have a numbers of powers that can be used at range (piercing strike vs. those pesky soldiers, and sly flourish for extra damage are bot hat will, and can be used melee or ranged). So with a pillar and a little ducking my high dex rogue hits well, causes moderate damage (unless she picked up longbow), and gets sneak attack damage on top of that.

So at first level, with jsut a dagger and piercing strike, it's something like +8 to hit vs. reflex, a d4+4+2d6 damage (13.5 points).

Meanwhile, the fighter, who's trained in Military ranged weapons, fires a longbow, with probably a +2 (maybe +3 if he has some dex) to hit, and a d10 (Maybe +1) damage. Since Longbows are useless to high strength PC's, he uses javelin instead (ever fired a bow with a pull too strong for you? I'll defintiely be using the old HR to bring back strength pull bows). Now he gets +6 to hit vs AC does a d6+4 damage (average 7.5). All his "training" is worht exactly spit.

And in hand to hand, the rogue still does at least as much damage as the fighter, has about the same AC (thanks to the "no ability bonus to AC in heavy armor" rule), roughly equal other defenses (averaged out).

It would seem that the fighter's one and only job is to be a meat shield for the rest of the party. Um, who exactly wants to play a meat shield? Didn't we used to have hirelings for that sort of thing precisely because nobody wanted to do it?

I;ve been playing both a fighter and a rogue and have yet to see anythign the fighter can do better than the rogue. I have yet to see any reason to have one in the party at all. And now, with the adition of using stealth to get off sneak attacks more often than not, the rogue also becomes an artillary platform.

Sure glad they spent so much time removing the "broken" stuff from 3.5

To bad piercing strike is melee only and all of the Rogues ranged attacks are against AC only. So a level 1 Rogue will have +8 to hit versus a high strength Fighter who will have at least +6 to hit.. not a huge difference. Especially considering one is a Defender and one is a Striker.

It's already been stated and almost every one agrees that stealth as it's written isn't how it's actually intended and is broken. We'll probably see a fix/clarification with the next errata update.
 

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Old Gumphrey

First Post
Ziana said:
If the kobolds spent part of their turn (minor action I believe, see p281) warily watching for the thief, it would be an active check.

This is confusing as heck, because in the Perception skill it states that you spend 1 minute or a Standard action to use active Perception. :/ I guess one is for checking if you don't know someone is there, and the other is for locating someone you're already aware of.
 

WOLead

First Post
Old Gumphrey said:
This is confusing as heck, because in the Perception skill it states that you spend 1 minute or a Standard action to use active Perception. :/ I guess one is for checking if you don't know someone is there, and the other is for locating someone you're already aware of.
Eh, I would think...

Standard Action Perception Check: Trying to spot everything/anything that may be hidden from view, whether you are aware of it or not.

Minor Action Perception Check: Trying to spot one object/person that you are aware of.
 

Old Gumphrey

First Post
Let's see if I got this:

My gf's rogue is already hidden from a stealth roll. Combat begins. She "stealthily" attacks, beats everyone's perception roll. Sneak attack. She is still hidden from everyone's view?

She then makes a stealth check to "stealthily" attack and fails. No sneak attack. She is now visible to all who pass the perception roll. She then drops prone into concealment (we're in the woods) and "stealthily" moves away from her position. With a roll of 30, she is now hidden from everyone's view?

The goblin archer readies an action to shoot her the next time he sees her.

Now she "stealthily" moves behind a tree (with another 30) and then "stealthily" attacks said archer with another 30 stealth roll. He (miserably) fails his perception roll; can he attack her?

Regardless of the goblin's action, her attack grants combat advantage?

Next, she leaves the safety of her tree, crosses a clearing, and gets behind a second tree. She cannot roll Stealth, because she entered clear line of sight?

May she then "stealthily" attack and get combat advantage?

Regardless, can she then "stealthily" drop into a crouch and become hidden from anything but clear line of sight?
 

bardolph

First Post
Barzhac said:
I;ve been playing both a fighter and a rogue and have yet to see anythign the fighter can do better than the rogue. I have yet to see any reason to have one in the party at all. And now, with the adition of using stealth to get off sneak attacks more often than not, the rogue also becomes an artillary platform.
Fighter = Defender. Rogue = Striker. Is it any surprise that the Rogue does more damage than a fighter?

It would seem that the fighter's one and only job is to be a meat shield for the rest of the party. Um, who exactly wants to play a meat shield? Didn't we used to have hirelings for that sort of thing precisely because nobody wanted to do it?
The meat shield, or "Tank", is arguably the most important and exciting role in a party, and is certainly the most involved character. The Tank is where the entire team comes together, and good tanking often makes the difference between success and failure as a group.
 

bardolph

First Post
Old Gumphrey said:
Let's see if I got this:

My gf's rogue is already hidden from a stealth roll. Combat begins. She "stealthily" attacks, beats everyone's perception roll. Sneak attack. She is still hidden from everyone's view?
No. She is considered hidden because she is already hidden. Yes, she gains combat advantage, but the attack is not "stealthy" and once she attacks she is no longer hidden.

PHB, p188: "Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you're no longer hidden."

She then makes a stealth check to "stealthily" attack and fails. No sneak attack. She is now visible to all who pass the perception roll. She then drops prone into concealment (we're in the woods) and "stealthily" moves away from her position. With a roll of 30, she is now hidden from everyone's view?
As above, the attack itself cannot be stealthy. However, her crawl action can be "stealthy," and note that she gets a -5 to her roll if she moves more than 2 squares.

Note that some monsters have the "Sniper Fire" ability, which allows them to remain hidden if they miss a ranged attack. However, this is not a character ability.

The goblin archer readies an action to shoot her the next time he sees her.

Now she "stealthily" moves behind a tree (with another 30) and then "stealthily" attacks said archer with another 30 stealth roll. He (miserably) fails his perception roll; can he attack her? Regardless of the goblin's action, her attack grants combat advantage?
Her attack has combat advantage against the goblin, but she also has a -2 to her attack due to firing while prone.

The goblin can then attack her with his readied action, because she broke her stealth when she attacked. Then, during the goblin's turn, he can move adjacent to her, and use a melee weapon to attack her with combat advantage, since she is prone.

Next, she leaves the safety of her tree, crosses a clearing, and gets behind a second tree. She cannot roll Stealth, because she entered clear line of sight?
Yes. Also remember that standing up is a move action, and if the goblin is adjacent (as he would be in my example above), moving away would provoke an Opportunity Attack.

Regardless, can she then "stealthily" drop into a crouch and become hidden from anything but clear line of sight?
Yes. However, her opponents would presumably know which square she's in, even if she is hidden.


Hope this helps.

===============

PS: Regarding using allies to gain cover and roll Stealth, the answer is "no."

PHB p 290: "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover."

This means that the cover ONLY applies during the ATTACKER's turn, when they attack you, and therefore you cannot duck behind your friend and make a stealth roll, since on your own turn your ally does not count as cover.
 
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bardolph

First Post
I do think the Stealth rules, as written, are a bit goofy. Here's how I would houserule it:

New Condition: "Hidden" - Grants combat advantage. Shouting or attacking ends. Requires a Stealth roll vs Passive Perception to perform any non-attack action and remain hidden.

New Move Action: "Hide" - Requires cover or concealment. Cannot be performed when adjacent to an enemy. Cannot be performed if any enemies have unblocked line of sight to you. Make a Stealth roll vs the highest Passive Perception of all enemies within line of sight to become hidden.


Rule clarification: Distract - If you succeed in your Bluff check, you must immediately move into cover or concealment, and make a Stealth roll to become hidden. Moving in this manner does not provoke an Opportunity Attack from the target. If you do not move into cover or concealment, you automatically lose hidden status as soon as your turn ends. (This is actually consistent with the rules as written, but the PHB doesn't explain it very well)
 
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Dortmunder

First Post
Not sure if this has been answered already in the thread but...

Can a Rogue use an ally as cover from an enemy, and make Stealth checks every round to gain Combat Advantage, as long as his ally stays between him and the enemy?
 

Dortmunder said:
Not sure if this has been answered already in the thread but...

Can a Rogue use an ally as cover from an enemy, and make Stealth checks every round to gain Combat Advantage, as long as his ally stays between him and the enemy?

I would say so. Enemies grant cover to other enemies, so I would think that allies grant cover to other allies.

(From PHB pg 280: "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover." - so switching the word "enemy" to "ally" and "you" to "a monster"...)
 

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