D&D 5E Stealth & that big Rock!

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

If most of you is visible, sure.



No, you would not be clearly seen, as most of you is hidden behind the rock.

but you are seen, so sombody having a readied action to cast a spell ( that needs line of sight) on you when you re apear would trigger

 

[Noctem]

I guess your right the errata slipped my mind for a minute.
But can we still agree that if a creature has a clear line of sight to you can't be hidden ?

seeing something clerly is not defined in the rules
so when you pup up your head and part of your arm to make a range attack you might still need some obscurement between you and the target when makng the attack?

Well that's when we get into specifics. If I can only see half your body (half cover) because of a small wall. Does that constitute you seeing me clearly or unclearly? Same for 3/4? I would say that any form of concealment would fall into being unclearly seen since by definition it's what concealment does.

To explore the discussion now, if I peek my head out from behind a wall where I have total cover and make an attack with a hand crossbow against you, when you have no cover or concealment: Do you get bonuses from the total cover I'm using to hide? The rules say cover only applies to the target of an attack for what we're talking about, if you're standing in the open you have no bonuses to your defenses against my attack.

So with that covered, do you clearly see me when I poke my head out and make the attack? It's arguable that 3/4 of my body is not visible at least. Because I'm hidden before I make the attack, you have no way to tell when I'm going to attack. You lost track of me the moment I managed to hide. We've all seen it before, my target might know I went around the corner but can't predict what I'm going to do. I don't think it can be said that the target can "clearly see me" the moment I show less than 3/4 of my body to attack from hidden, unpredictably. Especially when we're in the middle of combat. As much as Saelorn wants to make it work like if they have a radar, that's just not the case vs a hidden creature. The rules say you lost track of me, you have to "guess where I am". Course once I make "an attack", "come out of hiding and approach you", "make noise like knock over a vase or call out a warning" I lose hidden and suddenly you know exactly where I am. DM fiat exists of course and a DM determines when you can and can't hide. But the rules do give us guidelines and those guidelines aren't even absolute by their own admission. Even more so post errata.

 

[Noctem]

but you are seen, so sombody having a readied action to cast a spell ( that needs line of sight) on you when you re apear would trigger

requiring line of sight and being seen clearly or unclearly are two completely different things. You're talking about different rules for different game elements with different requirements... Don't mix rules.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

Especially when we're in the middle of combat. As much as Saelorn wants to make it work like if they have a radar, that's just not the case vs a hidden creature.

Characters seem very aware in combat, you don't lose track of the position of invisible creatures unless they also hide

 

[slaughterj]

but you are seen, so sombody having a readied action to cast a spell ( that needs line of sight) on you when you re apear would trigger
...
Characters seem very aware in combat, you don't lose track of the position of invisible creatures unless they also hide

But you do lose track of hidden creatures! So the Rogue went behind the wall, made a successful Stealth check as a Bonus action and became hidden, and peeked back out and shot at you, you were not aware of the Rogue's presence until the attack occurred, so your readied action would go off thereafter.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Characters seem very aware in combat, you don't lose track of the position of invisible creatures unless they also hide

Combat doesn't mean you have a 20 in perception, are all seeing and all knowing to anything that you could possibly notice, either. That line just means that you use your perception as normal -- you aren't distracted and are actively paying attention up to the limits of your normal perception.

If someone's stealth beats your perception, you lose track of them, can't see them, and can only guess as to where they are. You're still looking around and aware of what's around you (to your own personal limits), but that doesn't turn you into the god of perception where nothing can hide from you. People good at hiding are good enough to hide from you even when you're paying attention to your surroundings.

But no one is good enough a hiding to do it without at least something to hide behind. This is meant to prevent WoW style stealth.

 

[Hriston]

Thankyou for everyone's replies. They have been very helpful. I have come to the following conclusions, which I will be implementing in my campaign unless someone can convince I am in error?
Core Concepts
• You cannot Hide from a creature that can see you clearly (requires at least 3/4 cover).

I disagree with this on the basis that if I can see 1/4 of your body clearly, then I can see you clearly. I mean, if I see part of a person lurking behind a rock, I'm going to be way more suspicious than if they were in full view.

• Stealth is an Action. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

I dislike this terminology. Hide is an action. Stealth is the skill that can come into play when you try to hide.

• Passive Perception is the DC your Stealth roll must succeed against.

I prefer to think of it as someone's Perception check needing to exceed your Stealth check in order to find you, but the result is the same.

• Search is an Action that allows a creature to make an active Perception skill check.

There's no such thing as an "active" check. You just make a Perception check, or an Investigation check, whatever the DM calls for.

• Only the First attack roll on a creatures turn has Advantage if they are able to successfully hide.

I addressed this up-thread. You don't get advantage directly from being hidden. You get advantage from being unseen. You need to be unseen (at least not seen clearly) in order to hide in the first place, so the two things are related, but being hidden doesn't confer any additional advantage if you were already unseen. Say you're hiding in an area of darkness and make a ranged attack on someone you can see. The attack roll is made with advantage because the target can't see you. The attack also reveals your location. You are no longer hidden, but you are still unseen, so any subsequent attacks you make against the target will be made with advantage as long as the target can't see you.

• If the location a creature is attempting to hide in is obvious, the creature has Advantage on their passive Perception check (DC +5). Example: creature hides behind a tree and doesn’t reappear, ducked around a corner, vanished from sight but didn’t hear you move away, etc. This is also subject to DM fiat. Example: If a creature repeatedly ducks around the same corner and pops out to sneak attack, it can be assumed the target is expecting the tactic and the creature automatically sees the attacker dart out as they are expecting your re-emergence.

IMO (and I believe I'm in somewhat of a minority in thinking this, if not completely alone), most of what you are describing here are examples of being seen clearly and would prohibit hiding. If I see you clearly, and then you try to hide in an obvious place right in front of me, there is no chance whatsoever that your location will become unknown to me. If anyone doubts that being hidden means that your location is unknown, read the unseen attacker rules. An attack from hiding can't reveal your location if it was known in the first place.

• Disadvantage on Perception checks if target is 50 feet or further away.

Sure, why not?

• Dim Light (shadows): Imposes disadvantage on Perception checks.

Not just dim light, but any lightly obscured area imposes disadvantage on Perception checks, but only those that rely on sight. Noticing a hidden creature doesn't rely on sight because you have to not be seen clearly in the first place in order to even attempt to hide. Noticing a creature that's hidden relies on hearing and/or smell, or tremorsense or whatever, things that aren't affected by lightly obscured areas.

• Darkvision: Can see in darkness as if the darkness were dim light. You see in shades of grey.

Again, how you see has nothing to do with finding hidden creatures because you have to not clearly see them before they can hide from you. Sight's been taken out of the equation.

 

[Amatiel]

Thankyou for everyone's comments, they were most helpful.

Core Concepts
• You cannot Hide from a creature that can see you clearly (requires at least 3/4 cover or concealment).
• Hide is an Action. When you try to Hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. If you are successful, you are Unseen.
• Passive Perception is the DC your Stealth roll must succeed against.
• Unseen – Any attack whereby the attacker is Unseen has advantage on attack rolls (any creature that is effectively invisible or successfully taken the Hade action is Unseen).
• Search - an Action that allows a creature to make an active Perception skill check.
• Only the First attack roll on a creature’s turn after they have become Unseen has Advantage on attack rolls.
• If the location a creature is attempting to hide in is obvious, the creature has Advantage on their passive Perception check (DC +5). Example: creature hides behind a tree and doesn’t reappear, ducked around a corner, vanished from sight but didn’t hear you move away, etc. (this was posted in sage advice). This is also subject to DM fiat (per sage advice). Example: If a creature repeatedly ducks around the same corner and pops out to sneak attack, it can be assumed the target is expecting the tactic and the creature automatically sees the attacker dart out as they are expecting your re-emergence.
• Disadvantage on Perception checks if target is 50 feet or further away.
• Light Obscurement (dim light, shadows, patchy fog, moderate fiolage): Imposes disadvantage on Perception checks.
• Darkvision: Can see in darkness as if the darkness were dim light, and in dim light as if normal light. You see in shades of grey.

 

[Prism]

If you do allow rogue to pop up and attack from cover then I would suggest applying either a half or three quarters cover bonus to the targets AC. Cover can work in both directions. Trying to fire a missile weapon while keeping most of your body behind the cover is difficult and I use the cover rules to emphasize that. Simply being able to see an enemy does not mean you can attack it freely

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I don't do that. When I shoot from behind an obstacle I'm very close to, I still see 100% of my target, so no cover applies.