Stealth vs Lack of Perception

[-Avalon-]

I am trying to figure this out, because it seems very buggy to me...

Two situations to deal with...

1: A Rogue sneaking through a castle, comes to a grand hall with pillars set every once in a while, torches on each, some shadows, but not many. He starts stealth in a nice area, successfully sneaking to the next area using shadows, but to get to the next he has to use the pillars and lit areas between... he watches the guards until they are looking away, darts across and hides behind next pillar... BUT! according to RAW all creatures in NON-combat situations have their heads on a swivel at all times, therefore the guards have direct LOS to him and his stealth is auto-broken, rogue is caught and prolly hanged...

2: Ranger sneaking up to a small camp of gnolls, trying to get a good position from which to strike. He lays down on the ground giving the lowest profile. No leaves on ground to give away his stealthy movements, and gently crawls/slides from one rock to another. The rocks give cover, but in between there is none. At the point where the gnolls can see far enough (pretty decent distance) he is automatically seen due to the same rule.

I can assume this is why the rogue gets certain at-wills, to help him roll a stealth check before and after the movement and not break stealth at any point during the movement... but what about the ranger? Does he HAVE to multi into rogue to be able to do standard ranger-y stuff in a ranger-y setting?

And how about, why is it that these guys (guards/gnolls/whatever) can have a passive perception of 10 and auto-break a rogue's or ranger's roll, even if they rolled a 20 (at 1st level at least a 27 if they half paid attention to it)??

Please explain all this to me someone? lol

(I have other concerns with perception and level based checks, such as secret doors and such, but that is later)

 

[Kordeth]

I am trying to figure this out, because it seems very buggy to me...

Two situations to deal with...

1: A Rogue sneaking through a castle, comes to a grand hall with pillars set every once in a while, torches on each, some shadows, but not many. He starts stealth in a nice area, successfully sneaking to the next area using shadows, but to get to the next he has to use the pillars and lit areas between... he watches the guards until they are looking away, darts across and hides behind next pillar... BUT! according to RAW all creatures in NON-combat situations have their heads on a swivel at all times, therefore the guards have direct LOS to him and his stealth is auto-broken, rogue is caught and prolly hanged...

You've got that backwards. Creatures in combat are assumed to be looking all around them at any given time. Out of combat, the Stealth rules specifically say you can sneak behind someone without cover or concealment.

Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.

2: Ranger sneaking up to a small camp of gnolls, trying to get a good position from which to strike. He lays down on the ground giving the lowest profile. No leaves on ground to give away his stealthy movements, and gently crawls/slides from one rock to another. The rocks give cover, but in between there is none. At the point where the gnolls can see far enough (pretty decent distance) he is automatically seen due to the same rule.

Again, incorrect as stated above.

And how about, why is it that these guys (guards/gnolls/whatever) can have a passive perception of 10 and auto-break a rogue's or ranger's roll, even if they rolled a 20 (at 1st level at least a 27 if they half paid attention to it)??

I tell you what: go find a US Army ranger and tell him to make use of all the stealth training the Army has given him (certainly at least as good as a 1st-level D&D rogue) to sneak across a patch of open ground under full daylight with no cover while you watch.

It doesn't matter how ninja you are, if you don't have at least some level of concealment or cover and a bad guy looks right at you, he's going to see you.

 

[Lacyon]

I am trying to figure this out, because it seems very buggy to me...

Two situations to deal with...

1: A Rogue sneaking through a castle, comes to a grand hall with pillars set every once in a while, torches on each, some shadows, but not many. He starts stealth in a nice area, successfully sneaking to the next area using shadows, but to get to the next he has to use the pillars and lit areas between... he watches the guards until they are looking away, darts across and hides behind next pillar... BUT! according to RAW all creatures in NON-combat situations have their heads on a swivel at all times, therefore the guards have direct LOS to him and his stealth is auto-broken, rogue is caught and prolly hanged...

I'm away from books, but IIRC this is the opposite of how it works. Inside combat, creatures are assumed to be alert in all directions and watching their backs, but outside of combat situations they can be distracted and you can sneak up behind them.

I can assume this is why the rogue gets certain at-wills, to help him roll a stealth check before and after the movement and not break stealth at any point during the movement... but what about the ranger? Does he HAVE to multi into rogue to be able to do standard ranger-y stuff in a ranger-y setting?

The rogue powers will work in combat situations. Any class can do it in non-combat situations (assuming the targets are distracted in some way).

 

[-Avalon-]

ok, sorry, thank you for explaining that, I misread it =) Now for the secret doors hehe....

According to the books, it is not who made the secret door, but who is trying to discover it, that the DC is based on (if not, please explain that, I may be misreading it also)...

Which would mean that an epic level rogue decides to hide in a secret lair behind a wall in town... he of course made this secret door using his expert epic level skills(prolly like a roll of 30-40)... But when the 4th level elven ranger walks by it, he sees it with his passive perception(around 20). The DC for a secret door in Epic level is way above 20, but the DC for secret doors in Heroic is only around 15-20... Since most of the skill checks in the game are based off the level of the person performing the skill... would this mean that the elf ranger auto sees the secret door no matter who made it?

 

[Syrsuro]

ok, sorry, thank you for explaining that, I misread it =) Now for the secret doors hehe....

According to the books, it is not who made the secret door, but who is trying to discover it, that the DC is based on (if not, please explain that, I may be misreading it also)...

Which would mean that an epic level rogue decides to hide in a secret lair behind a wall in town... he of course made this secret door using his expert epic level skills(prolly like a roll of 30-40)... But when the 4th level elven ranger walks by it, he sees it with his passive perception(around 20). The DC for a secret door in Epic level is way above 20, but the DC for secret doors in Heroic is only around 15-20... Since most of the skill checks in the game are based off the level of the person performing the skill... would this mean that the elf ranger auto sees the secret door no matter who made it?

Your mistake here is thinking that D&D4E is a simulationist game. It's not.

The assumption in the game is that if you put a secret door there, you intended for the players to find it.

And if you intended for the players to find it, the challenge of finding it ought to be appropriate for the players level. Thus the DC is based on the finder level, not the maker level.

If you want the door to not be findable (i.e. it was made by an epic level NPC) you just don't let the players find it either by fiat or by setting the DC super high.

And since it is not a door that the players are intended to find, the DC-setting guidelines do not apply.

Carl

 

[Lacyon]

ok, sorry, thank you for explaining that, I misread it =) Now for the secret doors hehe....

According to the books, it is not who made the secret door, but who is trying to discover it, that the DC is based on (if not, please explain that, I may be misreading it also)...

Which would mean that an epic level rogue decides to hide in a secret lair behind a wall in town... he of course made this secret door using his expert epic level skills(prolly like a roll of 30-40)... But when the 4th level elven ranger walks by it, he sees it with his passive perception(around 20). The DC for a secret door in Epic level is way above 20, but the DC for secret doors in Heroic is only around 15-20... Since most of the skill checks in the game are based off the level of the person performing the skill... would this mean that the elf ranger auto sees the secret door no matter who made it?

Set a level for the challenge itself and set DCs to match. (The DMG assumes you'll mostly use appropriate challenges to the players level. This is not a requirement).

 

[Kordeth]

Set a level for the challenge itself and set DCs to match. (The DMG assumes you'll mostly use appropriate challenges to the players level. This is not a requirement).

Or, to put it another way, the level of the person who made the secret door does determine its DC, but players should never run across secret doors created by people outside their level range without good reason.

 

[James McMurray]

Or if they do, you just describe them finding the door rather than roll it out.

 

[DracoSuave]

ok, sorry, thank you for explaining that, I misread it =) Now for the secret doors hehe....

According to the books, it is not who made the secret door, but who is trying to discover it, that the DC is based on (if not, please explain that, I may be misreading it also)...

Which would mean that an epic level rogue decides to hide in a secret lair behind a wall in town... he of course made this secret door using his expert epic level skills(prolly like a roll of 30-40)... But when the 4th level elven ranger walks by it, he sees it with his passive perception(around 20). The DC for a secret door in Epic level is way above 20, but the DC for secret doors in Heroic is only around 15-20... Since most of the skill checks in the game are based off the level of the person performing the skill... would this mean that the elf ranger auto sees the secret door no matter who made it?

Your failure here is in thinking in confusing heroic characters with heroic challenges.

Here's a simple analogy. If a group of first level characters encounter a terrasque, does the terrasque suddenly become a heroic tier monster?

No. Of course not.

You're confusing the level of the character with the level of the challenge. In this case, the challenge the rogue creates is epic tier, and the heroic tier character is -extremely- unlikely to overcome it.

Characters generally face challenges around their level, but that doesn't mean that all challenges that exist in the game world automaticly scale to their level. It just means that the challenges they must overcome tend to be appropriate to their level.

 

[nittanytbone]

Note that several Rogue utility powers exist to resolve exactly the problem of darting between pieces of cover.