Stealthy Combat: How Would You Run It?

[bardolph]

The Scenario:
A standard 1st level 5 PC party encounters a group of goblins in the woods. Let's say the PCs are: Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard. For the goblins, let's give them:

• 4 Goblin Cutters: Level 1 Minions
• 3 Goblin Sharpshooters: Level 1 Artillery. Stealth +12, +1d6 Damage with CA.
• 1 Fire Beetle: Level 1 Brute

Let's assume that about 50% of the map has concealment due to forest, with a smattering of cover and difficult terrain. Let's also assume that the beetle is noisy enough to cancel any surprise for the Goblins.

How do you run it? Keep in mind that Stealth +12 is quite formidable for the Goblin Sharpshooters, and is likely to beat the PCs Perception most of the time.

Questions of interest:

• When do you allow the Sharpshooters to roll Stealth?
• When do you allow the PCs to roll Perception?
• When do you grant CA to the Sharpshooters?
• What can PCs do to strike back at the Sharpshooters?

 

[Donatello]

Questions of interest:

• When do you allow the Sharpshooters to roll Stealth?

On their initiative. Stealth is an action, and they have to try and take cover to avoid notice. You can't just disappear.

• When do you allow the PCs to roll Perception?

When its their turn. Perception isn't an action, but no sense mucking up the works by having them roll at the same time the goblins are. I would have each PC roll once, on their turn, and point out which goblins they see based on which Stealth rolls they defeated.

• When do you grant CA to the Sharpshooters?

Thier first shot, if they're succesfully hidden. Attacking always ends Stealth, and since Stealth allows you to "avoid notice", not "disappear from view" they would cease to have CA after the first attack. Some kind of distraction or other situation would have to arise to allow them to attempt Stealth again. Now I know Goblin Sharpshooters have the Sniper ability, so if they attack and miss, they're still hidden and get CA on their next attack. If they attack and hit, their Stealth is blown.

• What can PCs do to strike back at the Sharpshooters?

If they're hidden from view the PC's can attack the square the Sharpshooter is in with a -5 penalty. If they're spotted, attack as per the normal Cover rules.



At least, that's how I'd do it.

 

[bardolph]

On their initiative. Stealth is an action, and they have to try and take cover to avoid notice. You can't just disappear.

The scenario assumes that about 50% of the map has concealment but not cover.

When its their turn. Perception isn't an action, but no sense mucking up the works by having them roll at the same time the goblins are. I would have each PC roll once, on their turn, and point out which goblins they see based on which Stealth rolls they defeated.

According to the PHB (p. 281), the PCs can do this as a minor action. However, needing to beat the Stealth roll by 10 points seems pretty rough - though I would only enforce that if the target has true Invisibility.

Thier first shot, if they're succesfully hidden. Attacking always ends Stealth, and since Stealth allows you to "avoid notice", not "disappear from view" they would cease to have CA after the first attack. Some kind of distraction or other situation would have to arise to allow them to attempt Stealth again. Now I know Goblin Sharpshooters have the Sniper ability, so if they attack and miss, they're still hidden and get CA on their next attack. If they attack and hit, their Stealth is blown.

So, you would basically give them CA until they hit once. After that, no more CA?

 

[Donatello]

The scenario assumes that about 50% of the map has concealment but not cover.

Then, use the standard Concealment rules, not Cover, my mistake.

According to the PHB (p. 281), the PCs can do this as a minor action. However, needing to beat the Stealth roll by 10 points seems pretty rough - though I would only enforce that if the target has true Invisibility.

The RAW is for attacking Targets You Can't See, not just guys hiding in the woods. This is applied for invisibility, darkness, etc. For just Stealth vs. Perception, you don't have to impose the "Win by 10" rule. In 3e speak, you get a -10 circumstance penalty to your perception test (or they get a +10 circumstance bonus to their stealth).

So, you would basically give them CA until they hit once. After that, no more CA?

Yep, unless they can re-hide or force situations that normally grant CA. To give them more than that gives them powers beyond mortal ken. That sort of thing is saved for the invisible and the extremely stealthy (with powers the involve hitting and not breaking hide).

 

[bardolph]

Yep, unless they can re-hide or force situations that normally grant CA. To give them more than that gives them powers beyond mortal ken. That sort of thing is saved for the invisible and the extremely stealthy (with powers the involve hitting and not breaking hide).

It's just that CA for ranged characters is very hard to come by, if you don't let them use Stealth to get it. What it boils down to is a +1d6 bonus usable once per encounter, which seems pretty gimpy to me.

 

[Donatello]

It's just that CA for ranged characters is very hard to come by, if you don't let them use Stealth to get it. What it boils down to is a +1d6 bonus usable once per encounter, which seems pretty gimpy to me.

Well, a Goblin Sharpshooter is only level 2 Artillery. They're not exactly dominating the battlefield at this point. Have them use Bluff (untrained) to create a diversion to let them hide again. Or, the way to give them more dominant combat advantage is to use terrain to their advantage. Put them in the trees so the party has to climb up to them to attack them. That's free CA right there.

I don't think it's too gimpy because compare them to the Kobold Slinger, which is Level 1 Artillery. 31 hp vs 24 hp, AC 16 vs 13, 1d6+4 vs 1d6+2 damage, +9 to hit vs +6, even Initiative +5 vs +3. They seem to be ahead of the levelling curve already, now compare their Sniper ability and the bonus d6 when having CA to the Slinger's special shots. The Goblin already has a sizeable advantage on the level curve here. Making him do 2d6+4 on a consistent basis pushes him beyond what a level 2 creature should be able to do.

Ranged CA is supposed to be hard to come by, or rogues would be the artillery PCs instead of rangers.

 

[bardolph]

I don't think it's too gimpy because compare them to the Kobold Slinger, which is Level 1 Artillery. 31 hp vs 24 hp, AC 16 vs 13, 1d6+4 vs 1d6+2 damage, +9 to hit vs +6, even Initiative +5 vs +3. They seem to be ahead of the levelling curve already, now compare their Sniper ability and the bonus d6 when having CA to the Slinger's special shots.

The Kobold Slinger is a good example, and I would think that a (fairly) consistent +1d6 is equivalent to the 3 special shots.

Ranged CA is supposed to be hard to come by, or rogues would be the artillery PCs instead of rangers.

I disagree, on both counts. IMO, ranged CA should be about as easy to obtain as melee CA. Likewise, both Rangers and Rogues should have ranged and melee builds available to them. If Rangers can be two-blade melee strikers, why couldn't Rogues be snipers?

 

[Mistwell]

An important issue about concealment from being IN forested area: you are giving your foe as much concealment as you have, even if your foe is out in the open, based on the RAW concealment rules.

Which means, unless you get combat advantage to negate it, your goblins will be suffering a -2 attack. I've speculated in the past that this is a good indicator that stealth checks during combat to gain combat advantage should be allowed on a fairly liberal basis.

 

[bardolph]

An important issue about concealment from being IN forested area: you are giving your foe as much concealment as you have, even if your foe is out in the open, based on the RAW concealment rules.

Which means, unless you get combat advantage to negate it, your goblins will be suffering a -2 attack. I've speculated in the past that this is a good indicator that stealth checks during combat to gain combat advantage should be allowed on a fairly liberal basis.

I'm with you on this. How would you run the "PCs trying to find hidden goblins" side of the equation?

 

[Xorn]

When do you allow the Sharpshooters to roll Stealth?

On their turn, if they have cover/concealment. If you mean when can they stealth to gain Combat Advantage, then only when Stealth has made the party unaware of the Sharpshooter. If they can manage to stealth around to another area that they weren't undetected, the target is unaware of their new position and I'd grant combat advantage. If you're using stealth to duck behind a tree trunk and pop out and fire from the same spot--they're aware of you, no CA, sorry.

When do you allow the PCs to roll Perception?

On their turn. If they are trying to quickly determine if their are any tripwires in the area, Standard Action. If they are trying to locate a sharpshooter that has successfully stealthed against them, Minor Action.

When do you grant CA to the Sharpshooters?

When they meet conditions that grant CA. In relation to Stealth, that falls under "Target is unaware of you.". In relation to total concealment/superior cover, that falls under "Target can't see you."

What can PCs do to strike back at the Sharpshooters?

I'm confused by this one, but I'm assuming you mean what can they do against a sharpshooter that has managed to stealth.

Fighter:
- Make a perception check to locate out of sight goblins.
- Run to where he last saw/heard one, then hit it a lot.
- Run near where he last saw/heard a couple, and Ready a Charge action.
- Pull out a ranged weapon and Ready a ranged attack.

Paladin:
- Make a perception check to locate out of sight goblins.
- Run to where he last saw/heard one, then hit it a lot.
- Run near where he last saw/heard a couple, and Ready a Charge action.
- Pull out a ranged weapon and Ready a ranged attack.
+ Challenge whatever you find.

Cleric:
- Make a perception check to locate out of sight goblins.
- Run to where he last saw/heard one, then hit it a lot.
- Run near where he last saw/heard a couple, and Ready a Charge action.
- Pull out a ranged weapon and Ready a ranged attack.
+ Lance of Faith is a handy ranged attack to Ready.

Rogue:
- Make a perception check to locate out of sight goblins.
- Run to where he last saw/heard one, then hit it a lot.
- Run near where he last saw/heard a couple, and Ready a Charge action.
- Pull out a ranged weapon and Ready a ranged attack.
+ Play their game--hide and move to a new position undetected, and
Ready a Sly Flourish.

Wizard:
- Make a perception check to locate out of sight goblins.
- Run to where he last saw/heard one, then use a close attack on it.
- Ready a Magic Missile.
+ When in doubt, cast an area spell, you don't have to get that close.

And the last tip: If you see one, call it out with a free action--now the rest of the group doesn't have to guess the square to attack.