STILL No Character Builder Update?

[True_Blue]

And yet people do buy CB which follows the same premise. Everyone had to agree to the terms that WotC set. They will update the CB every month if they can, but they may miss months. People click ok and then pay WotC. Then a month comes along where they dont get an update, and they fly into rage as if the company screwed them over.

Its just...amazing. You *literally* were told this could happen, are you sure you want to do this, you said yes and paid, and then when it happened, you are incredulous and say you deserve a refund. I just am floored that so many people agreed upon a set of terms, WotC carries on and follows those terms, and people get up in arms demanding refunds.

Now I can understand a person who agrees to some terms, has things happen, decides they do not like those terms anymore, and then inform WotC that they no longer like those terms and could you please change them. Or even cancelling the product because those terms ended up being harder to handle than what you originally thought. But to yell at the company and make it out as if its the company's fault and how you deserve the company to go above and even beyond the terms that were agreed upon? I just can't think of it as any other thing but entitlement, a self-centered attitude. Its more about what am I entitled to, not what was agreed upon and did each party get what they agreed upon.

This actually came out harsher when I reread it, but its still true. Its one thing to voice dissatisfaction that the agreed upon terms were harder than what you thought they were going to be. Its another thing to insist the company literally screwed you over and you deserve some of your money back, when the company followed the agreement and did nothing wrong.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah it is amazing that people feel entitled to get something they paid for. The nerve of those people complaining after they paid for something in advance, and failed to receive it two one months in a row. Why would someone be upset about literally throwing money away? receiving a full refund for only a partial nondelivery which still satisfied the terms and conditions the customer agreed to?

Fixed it for you Shazzy. I wonder the same thing about your last point

 

[P1NBACK]

And yet people do buy CB which follows the same premise. Everyone had to agree to the terms that WotC set. They will update the CB every month if they can, but they may miss months. People click ok and then pay WotC. Then a month comes along where they dont get an update, and they fly into rage as if the company screwed them over.

I don't see anyone flying into a rage. I just see disappointed and dissatisfied customers who have come to expect this service as part of their subscription package.

Its just...amazing. You *literally* were told this could happen, are you sure you want to do this, you said yes and paid, and then when it happened, you are incredulous and say you deserve a refund. I just am floored that so many people agreed upon a set of terms, WotC carries on and follows those terms, and people get up in arms demanding refunds.

lol... It's one thing to "follow the terms" and another to abide by an expectation set by the service you are providing and the paying customers needs and wants.

As the analogy said before, when I go into a restaurant, that restaurant may not be legally obliged to give me good customer service, serve my food quickly and hot, and refill my drinks when they are low. But, it's definitely expected.

If WotC wants to keep customers (and it certainly appears they do) they refund the dissatisfied customers. Same concept. Otherwise, I cancel my annual subscription entirely (which I've had since the get-go) and you don't get any of my hard-earned dollars. Yeah?

Now I can understand a person who agrees to some terms, has things happen, decides they do not like those terms anymore, and then inform WotC that they no longer like those terms and could you please change them. Or even cancelling the product because those terms ended up being harder to handle than what you originally thought. But to yell at the company and make it out as if its the company's fault and how you deserve the company to go above and even beyond the terms that were agreed upon? I just can't think of it as any other thing but entitlement, a self-centered attitude. Its more about what am I entitled to, not what was agreed upon and did each party get what they agreed upon.

Oh yeah. I definitely expect companies to go "above and beyond" - that's what any customer expects. That's what separates good, successful companies from lousy ones.

This actually came out harsher when I reread it, but its still true. Its one thing to voice dissatisfaction that the agreed upon terms were harder than what you thought they were going to be. Its another thing to insist the company literally screwed you over and you deserve some of your money back, when the company followed the agreement and did nothing wrong.

I don't think anyone is arguing about a company "doing nothing wrong" in this sense. It's about the company providing the service as expected.

The reason that clause is in there is not because WotC isn't obliged to provide the updates, it's because WotC wants legal backing so they don't get sued in an instance where they don't get the updates out.

That doesn't mean the customers don't want/need/expect those updates. And a smart company does well to ensure that the customer is serviced in this respect.

In the example of your milk man business, if I were your competitor, I would probably have a similar contract (to avoid being sued), but where you would turn a cold shoulder to the customer who didn't get their milk, I'd give them a free month's supply, or extend their contract, or give them twice as much milk. It's called customer service. When we enter into these contracts, we do well by each other to maintain a reasonable business relationship. WotC surely isn't going to "patiently wait a month" if I skip my fees.

It's a two-way street.

And, luckily, WotC doesn't have your philosophy on customer service and expectations. Luckily, WotC is the milk man that wants to take care of their customer base (because as any business major will tell you, it costs more to get a new customer than to keep an old one - especially those loyal enough to stay with you even though you completely butchered the original vision of the product).

Yeah?

 

[Scribble]

That's prettyy much the mainstay of Customer Service and Account Management... Under Promise and over deliver.

If I can't get a report to you until Thursday, I'll tell you I can't get it to you until at least Monday.


Then when I DO get it to you on Thursday I went out of my way to get you that report early.

Same thing here... WoTC under promises, "We don't guarantee we'll get you the updates every month." Then over delivers when they normally do...

Whenever you inevitably end up over promising and under delivering, then you go into apology mode.

It's not groveling mode though, as some seem to want.

It starts with an explanation, and a statement of what you can do to fix it, or at least mitigate the damages and you go from there.

In this case WoTC started with, hey we're sorry this is the reason for the delay, and then followed up with what they were doing (working to get it out early October.)

For some that's enough. Myself included. For others it's not, and so WoTC offered a refund.


All the while they never fell back on - well that's what you signed up for so nya...

Despite what they say, when it comes to stuff like this, and people actually dealing with the company (and not just sounding off on the internet) WoTC is pretty respectful of their clientèle.

 

[interwyrm]

I'd be happy enough if they only updated the compendium. I rely heavily on the CB, but as long as it's in the compendium, I can still make a character.

I used to heavily pirate RPG books, but stopped entirely since purchasing my subscription. At this point, I am frustrated enough, and feel somewhat entitled to go looking for pdfs until they update the services.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

mad foam raging I say. mad foam raging.

 

[True_Blue]

And, luckily, WotC doesn't have your philosophy on customer service and expectations. Luckily, WotC is the milk man that wants to take care of their customer base (because as any business major will tell you, it costs more to get a new customer than to keep an old one - especially those loyal enough to stay with you even though you completely butchered the original vision of the product).

Yeah?

I would say this is unlucky, personally. What has happened is because people feel like they should expect things that arent agreed upon, the company has to figure that into their business model. Which means other people potentially have to pay more because some people will try to eek out a little more product than what they deserve. So basically costs rise to take this into account.

I don't believe that WotC literally said they needed to add an extra $1 to the cost so that they can cover this instance by any means. But its something they have to talk about, plan, etc when it comes down to how much to charge people for a product. A product costs them X amount of money, but then you have to add in all the unknown's, and this is definitely one of them.

I guess its amazing to me that not only do you (sort of) admit that they are following the terms that you agreed to, but that you are proud you can eek even more out of them. You seem to have the attitude that you should get money back, i.e. part of the product for free, because of what you *expect* to happen, and not what was agreed upon by both parties. You have entered agreement where you both agreed that you would get X and they would get money, and then you complain that they did not give you X + Y, so you want your money back. Its definitely an entitlement issue and sad to see more and more in the country.

They told you in no uncertain terms that you get Dragon, Dungeon, Monster Builder, all the old CB updates, and any new CB updates *if* they come out that month. If not CB updates come out that month, than thats just how things fall. You said "Hey that's cool with me, here's my money" and then paid. They followed their obligations for the month in September, and then you turn around and are flumoxed they didnt give you an update.

You see this as a good thing, that you are able to get up in arms and the company caves and gives you money back because later after the agreement you demanded more than what you agreed upon. I see it as a bad case of the "entitlements". You would be livid if WotC came back and said "Hey you know how you paid us $X for a month's of service.. well, we *expected* you to pay $X+2". You would say "what!? We agreed upon you doing this much and I pay this amount, how could you just assume it would change??"

The fact of the matter is that the company is nice enough to go ahead and give you back a refund for the month, and thats very nice of them. Thats a good Customer Service and a good company right there. But make no mistake, you don't deserve it. You don't. You can claim that they should, and that it makes them more money, etc. You can come up with all sorts of reasons why you should get it. But the fact of the matter is that when it comes down to it, its not right for you to demand the money back. Whether you got a refund or not doesn't justify it as "right". You just happened to have explained to them how financially its better for them to do so. Again, it does not make it right.

In the end though, its just a CB and a refund of like $5-6, so not a big deal overall. Its just sad, in my own eyes, that this happens in lots of transactions everyday and how people are changed by it in their attitudes toward things. Sure, one thing is only $5-6, but now translate that to all the things the person does in a year, and it definitely warps people's sensibilities.

 

[Dumnbunny]

Are people having such a hard time making toons without the CB?

Yes, absolutely. Normally I like making characters in various systems, considering it kind of a sub-hobby in and of itself. With 4e I've found the process of making characters by hand almost physically painful whenever I've tried it. Flipping through three or more books for power options, six or more for feats, various other books for various other options, and then I realize I need a 13 in some stat for some feat and now I have to redo all the math. And after I've done all that I have to write out the race and class features, feats and powers by hand.

No freaking way, not happening, not again. Life is too short.

So I guess you could say that I am indeed voting with my wallet. I buy everything WotC publishes for 4e, I just hold off on buying any book with character options, and refuse to build characters using those options, until the character builder is updated with that book's content.

 

[BobTheNob]

How to create threads like this

Step A) Get a tea cup
Step B) Put a storm in it

I would much rather take the energy complaining spent about this situation and channel it into something useful and fun, like doing my tax return, which will end up getting me far more money for my efforts than trying to scrimp out a refund from WOTC

Pick your battles people...

 

[Raikun]

Yes, absolutely. Normally I like making characters in various systems, considering it kind of a sub-hobby in and of itself. With 4e I've found the process of making characters by hand almost physically painful whenever I've tried it. Flipping through three or more books for power options, six or more for feats, various other books for various other options, and then I realize I need a 13 in some stat for some feat and now I have to redo all the math. And after I've done all that I have to write out the race and class features, feats and powers by hand.

No freaking way, not happening, not again. Life is too short.

Which, of course, is why we're fortunate that the CB still does in fact work for the vast majority of options available in 4e. =)