Stopping the "extended rest after every encounter"

[deleteme123456]

I spotted everyone who used 3+ healing surges in the battle 1 free one in the thought that a defender class would have helped keep some of that pressure off them. I think they need to learn to protect their leader classes a little better (the Cleric also chose not to wear heavy armor, but with only +2 INT is one AC behind what he could be, a minor point but there nonetheless).

In general the monsters pick on the nearest thing that they think they can hit or that has damaged them recently or some combination of those factors. The monsters know they can't hit somebody wearing plate (besides which, he has all sorts of powers that punish the monsters for attacking him), so they ignore the guy with 18 AC plus Concealment... most Lv 1 monsters would have to roll 15 to hit that... when they can go hit the rogue or the warlord... they certainly would rather thin the opposition first and then come back to deal with the plate-mail wielding beast.

For now I've told them that there will be small XP rewards for completing 5+ encounters a day, and plot consequences for resting too often. I didn't explicitly define "too often" because it does have to vary somewhat, but I agree that in a fixed scenario like this, there can be dire consequences for failing to quest on.

 

[bardolph]

In a high-treat game, the natural impulse of any role-player or storyteller is to be careful in order to preserve his/her character. Having a cherished character die on you is a great blow. For a min/maxing tactician, not so much - its just a chance to try out a new build.

In a sense, if your players are insisting on resting up after every encounter, it means they are interested in preserving their characters (and thus the campaign) and is generally a good sign.

I don't think a DM should automatically punish characters for doing the wise and prudent thing - which is to rest up after every battle.

However, putting time pressure on the party every once in a while can create some dramatic tension, which is good for any campaign.

 

[deleteme123456]

In a sense, if your players are insisting on resting up after every encounter, it means they are interested in preserving their characters (and thus the campaign) and is generally a good sign.

I don't think a DM should automatically punish characters for doing the wise and prudent thing - which is to rest up after every battle.

However, putting time pressure on the party every once in a while can create some dramatic tension, which is good for any campaign.

I disagree with that. I think they're interested in resting up solely so that they can blow all their dailies and have an action point for every fight. Which obviously the game is not designed around.

 

[Brazenwood]

I don't like how fast PCs advance anyway, so I'm already opting for the slow advancement rates which amount to giving 50% XP, and my players know I do this and understand why I do this. Our campaigns generally last a year and a half not 9 months.

My solutions to Player Caution:

1st encounter 50% XP
2nd encounter 75% XP + 1 Action Point for Milestone
3rd encounter 100% XP
4th encounter 100% XP + 2 Action Points

After 4 encounters they should be wiped out for the day!
If they really want to press on to a 5th encounter, make them make Endurance checks. If a player fails his Endurance check, then he is fatigued and grants combat advantage, but at least he has those two action points to work with!

 

[bardolph]

I disagree with that. I think they're interested in resting up solely so that they can blow all their dailies and have an action point for every fight. Which obviously the game is not designed around.

I think the game is designed to work pretty well in both modes: 1 big encounter per day, or several encounters per day.

Obviously, the "1 encounter per day" mode has an edge, but that edge is MUCH smaller than it was in previous editions (and in most RPGs), due to encounter powers, healing surges, and milestones.

I see no need to punish characters for resting whenever they can - that's just smart play. However, a good campaign will introduce time pressures that encourage characters to press on in certain situations.

A good mix is probably best. But don't rely on the players to mix it up for you. That's up to the story to accomplish.

 

[deleteme123456]

I think the game is designed to work pretty well in both modes: 1 big encounter per day, or several encounters per day.

Obviously, the "1 encounter per day" mode has an edge, but that edge is MUCH smaller than it was in previous editions (and in most RPGs), due to encounter powers, healing surges, and milestones.

I see no need to punish characters for resting whenever they can - that's just smart play. However, a good campaign will introduce time pressures that encourage characters to press on in certain situations.

A good mix is probably best. But don't rely on the players to mix it up for you. That's up to the story to accomplish.

The problem with the story having consequences is that a) it requires a lot more work on the DM beyond just taking the prepublished campaign and running it (now if you're writing your own anyway this might be less problematic) and b) it has to have the potential to result in something really bad that does punish the characters... like a GAME OVER to use KOTS if the bad guys have enough time to complete whatever they're trying to do (without giving spoilers in case anyone is playing as a PC). And then what? I suppose we can apply RetCon (Retroactive Continuity) and say "well, that's what WOULD have happened had you rested. Instead..." although what point do you go back to? Or do you simply say, well, you lost that campaign, let's try another, and this time try to actually do your jobs?

I don't want to drive my players off, but I don't want them to be cheesing through this either. If you know up-front that you will have all your healing surges, daily powers, and action points available for your first (only) battle of the day, it gives different tactics and the encounters will be easier. The wizard goes to hide in a corner and uses flaming sphere, sacrificing a standard action as needed to stay within range if the bad guys don't engage... that's just one example.

 

[firesnakearies]

Here's my answer to this issue:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4336388#post4336388

 

[strike277]

I was leery of the extended rest rules and power surges from the start. I could see what the players would do in order to regain HP after each day. I ruled , on an extended rest you only get back 1/4 of your HP, though you get back your daily powers as normal. And I also ruled you may only have an extended rest once per day, from the core. But, they don't always get that rest either.

I didn't like the idea of the characters being whole again and ready to go after an encounter just because they can. An "All we have to do is survive this encounter" attitude was developing. I put a stop to that. I want that fear of death looming over their heads. Other wise they would tend to become reckless and not think things through. If I were running just a Hack and Slash game, then it would be different, but I'm not. just my two cents worth.

 

[Deodanth]

Preventing total healing -- another idea

This is a great & meaty thread, along with the parallel threads on other boards, and I'm just now catching up on them.

I share Strike277's sentiment about 4e parties being able to miraculously recover to full health every day. Part of me misses the tradition of the party resting in town a few days to heal their injuries and sickness, or of them making the harried trek through the wilderness while nursing painful wounds. These scenes are all but gone from 4e. Aside from HP, we don't even have ability damage, which was another feature of 3e that I was fond of.

Limiting the PCs to one (maybe two) healing surge after an extended rest, seems fair and quite reasonable. Problem is, what's to stop them from spending more healing once they get going again. Even if it takes a new encounter, or a cleric to unlock healing surges, they will find a way to use those surges and top off their HP.

How about tagging a certain amount of damage as being long-term, or persistent damage which can't be healed by normal surges? (similar to fire damage to a troll.) Here's an idea borrowed from the old Arduin Grimoire game rules, which I see fitting with 4e in a number of ways: Critical damage is persistent damage.

[sblock="Concept"]Concept: The majority of a character's Hit Points are not flesh-and-blood, physical health. HP are largely a measure of a hero's ability to endure weapon and spell combat through fighting skill, spirit, endurance, luck, and other intangible factors. Most damage simply represents fatigue and the depletion of those factors in battle, and healing surges represent a chance to refresh them. However when the character takes significant damage, such as from critical hits, ongoing damage and sneak attacks, some of that is actual blood loss and trauma to the PC's physical body. This is real injury, which is more difficult to heal.[/sblock]
[sblock="Mechanics"]Mechanics: Part of the total HP damage to a character will be labeled Injury Points. You count IP as part of regular damage, but also keep track of IP separately.

When you take a critical hit, the standard crit damage (max dice + bonus) is counted as regular damage, but any damage from dice rolled on top of it (for high crit, magic weapon, sneak attack, etc) is also counted as Injury Points. In addition, on any turn during which you take 5 or more ongoing damage of any type, you count 1 as an Injury Point.

When using healing surges, and when healed by powers that trigger healing surges, normal damage is restored but IP are not. Your "temp max health" is equal to your total maximum HP minus your injury points; this is the maximum you can reach via normal healing, i.e. surges.

Injury Points can only be restored in one of three ways:

1. Prayers with the healing keyword, which provide HP die rolls instead of or in addition to healing surges. The amount shown on the die, including any ability bonus for the caster, is subtracted from your IP.

2. For each healing surge you use as part of an extended rest, you subtract 1 IP.

3. Certain divine rituals will provide critical healing and thus target IP. (To be determined!)[/sblock]
The above rule makes combat inherently more dangerous, but not overwhelmingly so, IMO. By preventing total healing between encounters, PCs will gain more respect for critical hits, and the danger level of an adventure in general. Does this complicate the game, yes, a bit. Does it enhance the enjoyment and excitement of the game? Please comment.

 

[AtomicPope]

[RANT]

By Gygax's Grey Beard, you should smack 'em upside their heads with the PHB and point out the back cover.

"THE WORLD NEEDS HEROES"

Not a bunch of chicken****s that are afraid of their own shadows and cry over hangnails.

[/Rant]

You made me laugh