Story-creation games (storygames) - are they RPGs?

[Umbran]

I have at least 4 groups where the story is what matters.

Ah. You see, I would think the difference lies not in "what is important", but in how the game progresses, and what the player's actions (as opposed to the character's actions) are like.

You can play Settlers of Catan in such a way that the story matters, but it is neither a role-playing game nor a story game.

In a story game, the bulk of the rules are rules for manipulating the story. In D&D, the bulk of the rules are for resolving character actions - you can look at the results as a story, but you don't manipulate the story directly.

 

[Umbran]

But my incredibly uninformed opinon on the matter is that yes, they are RPGs--even if only in the sense that they're a spin-off niche; an "extreme" expression of a certain playstyle preference, if you will, that comes from within the RPG hobby. To use a biological analogy, in cladistic analysis, any descendent of a given group is by definition also part of that group.

Yes, well, I again point you at "Once Upon a Time", It really and truly isn't an RPG. While the people who created it may well have been familiar with RPGs, this is a game that is its own beast, not really a descendant of D&D. You could easily imagine this game coming into being without D&D ever having existed. It has none of the standard RPGisms.

 

[Agamon]

Yes, well, I again point you at "Once Upon a Time", It really and truly isn't an RPG. While the people who created it may well have been familiar with RPGs, this is a game that is its own beast, not really a descendant of D&D. You could easily imagine this game coming into being without D&D ever having existed. It has none of the standard RPGisms.

OUaT isn't marketed as an RPG. You aren't playing a role. It's more a card/board game with story-telling, like Dixit or Gloom.

I'd say games like Fiasco and Dread are RPGs. Yes, you're telling a story, but you're playing the roll of one character in that game. They are a different branch of RPG, but they're under the umbrella.

 

[Advilaar]

My take on it is this:

The old kids game of playing with action figures is a storytelling game. For girls, it is Barbies. Now, if all the participants agree to create a story, cool. I had some excellent stories going on between action figures and imagination creating scenarios as a young boy. However, playing with the wrong folks (not that they were bad) could lead to endless arguements over "I shot you, no you did not." I could see a more mature story game, but without referees or some "DM", it could devolve.

But the problem and difference comes up when you are talking outcomes and conflict resolution. Or when instead of controling multiple action figures, you control one or have vested interent in a group. RPGs solve the problem by determining success or failure.

I am more of a hybrid proponent. I think some campaigns I have been in could use a bit more sandbox and less theme park. After running the things I have run really sandboxy, I get spoiled. With the exception of tournament stuff, I think the world would be a better place if more DMs adopted that approach.

 

[prosfilaes]

To use a biological analogy, in cladistic analysis, any descendent of a given group is by definition also part of that group.

In one way of arranging biology. It's not always followed, even there, as the very existence of herpetologists proves. (The smallest clade into include all reptiles also includes mammals and birds.)

Personally, I'd define Primetime Adventures as both a story game and a roleplaying game. You take a character, but you have broad control over story, and the rules center on creating a story, not simulating a world. (I.e. there are no rules for strength, but there are rules for where you character will dominate the scene.)

 

[Hussar]

We can play RPG's without a GM. There are RPG's out there that do this.

Why can't we play RPG's without Players? As in, everyone at the table is a GM. S'mon mentioned that the players aren't any more invested in a given character than a DM is of an NPC in a traditional game.

Does that mean that DM's are not roleplaying?

 

[prosfilaes]

Does that mean that DM's are not roleplaying?

They're playing an RPG, but they're not really playing a role. If everyone is a DM, then no one has a role they're playing. Is collaborative novel writing roleplaying?

 

[rkwoodard]

not RPG

Hello,

I don't thing Story Games are Role Playing Games. You can play a RPG without any story at all (it would not be a lot of fun, imho). You explore a dungeon, what role are you playing? Fighter...ok

Storygames do not require you to play a specific role in side the story.

However, both are a ton of fun, and I enjoy them both.

RK

 

[Hussar]

They're playing an RPG, but they're not really playing a role. If everyone is a DM, then no one has a role they're playing. Is collaborative novel writing roleplaying?

Sure they're playing roles. Most likely, they're playing multiple roles from a stance similar to how DM's play NPC's. Or, they could be focusing on a single role, much like a DMPC.

Again, aren't you arguing that DM's can't roleplay?

I'd argue that no, collaborative novel writing isn't generally roleplaying, but, probably because collaborative novel writing isn't generally done sitting around a table together. There's a lot less interaction going on generally, IME, because each writer has a fairly good idea of what he or she is responsible for and doesn't want to step on the toes of the other writers.

In a Story game, it's much more immediete and while it's miles from traditional RPG's, I'd still put it in the same category. Although, to be fair, like any genre distinction, there's going to be all sorts of fuzzy bits and exceptions at the edges.

Is Gloom an RPG? Not really. But, can you drift it into being an RPG? Fairly easily. It's one of those border cases where genre distinctions don't work so well.

 

[Lwaxy]

you can look at the results as a story, but you don't manipulate the story directly.

But we do. Whether it's the GM introducing new things or the players doing the same on a smaller scale. In some games, there are some things players may insert into the campaign at any time, or after asking the GM. Stories may develop quite differently then.