D&D 4E STR 'to-hit' bonus departing in 4e?

[Thundershield]

There's also a simple game-balancing element to it.

If we were to let Dexterity replace Strength when it comes to the accuracy of melee attacks, things would look like this:

Strength modifies damage and the few Str-based skills (Athletics. What else?).
Dexterity modifies attack rolls, initiative, Reflex defense, AC, and a wide slew of Dex-based skills (from Acrobatics to Thievery to Stealth, etc.).

No, let the brawny types keep a little reason to stay brawny and enjoy all the goodness you already get from your high Dexterity score.

 

[GreatLemur]

There is no "raw physical strength" score, there is just Strength. As I have already observed, a lot of what you would call agility is subsumed under Str.

That's news to me. But I could believe it, in a system where "wisdom" is actually perception and willpower, and "charisma" is social charm . . . and also willpower.

Seriously, after Armor Class, I think the six traditional attributes are my least favorite sacred cow.

 

[Lanamelach]

I say that it should remain as it is for the most part, with the only change being the removal of Weapon Finesse - certain weapons should automatically be able to use DEX.

Strength is (more or less) the ability to apply and control large amounts of force (by swinging a large chunk of sharpened steel, wear thirty pounds of armor, or climb and swim while doing both).

Dexterity is the ability to get out of the way of said large forces (five D's of Dodgeball, anyone?), applying relatively small amounts of force over a very small area (such as picking a lock or stabbing with a rapier), and, maybe, avoiding notice.

 

[Zander]

...many RPG players have absolutely no real life experience with fighting of any kind.

I'm not one of the many: For several years I've been doing 15th century European swordsmanship (and other weapons) as a martial art. It isn't anachronistic in any way. It's drawn directly from treatises of the period and other historical sources.

A strong person can swing a weapon faster and with more percision because they aren't impeded by the bulk of the weapon as much as a weaker person is. so a fighter with STr of X+4 is much better then a fighter of STR X at getting the dmage dealign part of the weapon where he wants when he wants...

Essentially, that's correct. If two people of equal size and skill but unequal strengths attack each other using identical weapons, the stronger one will have the advantage because he'll be able to move his weapon faster.

Furthermore, an attacker with below average strength (typically, women and young teens - no offence!) compromises the accuracy of his cut or thrust because the momentum of the weapon is harder for him to control at the optimum extension. This latter point is especially true of heavier weapons, e.g. hand-and-a-half swords and poleaxes, than lighter weapons such as daggers. But it's even true of moderately heavy weapons like arming swords, i.e. one-handed swords.

HTH

 

[GreatLemur]

Essentially, that's correct. If two people of equal size and skill but unequal strengths attack each other using identical weapons, the stronger one will have the advantage because he'll be able to move his weapon faster.

Certainly. But what if we assume equal strength and different levels of general agility, hand-eye coordination, and reflex speed?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Certainly. But what if we assume equal strength and different levels of general agility, hand-eye coordination, and reflex speed?

That's accounted for in terms of AC.

Brad

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Realism? Let's put it this way. A real world, sport foil fencer is using the lightest training "weapon" possible for what used to be preparing people for duels with a rapier, itself a relatively light weapon. The sport fencer is not trying to blow past armor, at all, but only to apply 3 pounds of pressure from the spring-loaded tip onto his opponents chest.

Once you get the basics down, the three most important aspects in foil fencing are timing, speed, and recognizing/planning. The timing bit is more about varying the timing to benefit you (that is, screw up the other guy's hand-eye coordination more than yours, but the training matters more than the coordination). The recognition/planning part is the thinking part. Fencing speed? Past a certain minimum amount of lower body coordination and proper technique, is almost entirely based on the muscles in the legs moving the body out. It's why men and women are typically put in separate categories for ranking. It's also why fencers peak physically at around age 25, and start trying to compensate with guile from then on. You'll note how important foot work is here.

I'm pretty sure that every melee weapon bigger than a knife requires more strength to use than a sport fencing foil--not even considering the energy sapping effect of someone trying to kill you. As others have said above, in melee combat speed comes from strength.

Not that D&D has a huge claim for realism, but the Str adding to melee hit bonus is not the culprit.

 

[xechnao]

Sorry for reviving but what do you think about this?

Str adds to damage.

The lower Stat among Dex and Str applies for the Attack roll.

For AoO or against helpless targets one may choose to use his higher Stat bonus for the Attack roll.

EDIT: Also if you are flanking you may choose your higher Stat bonus.

 

[ogre]

xechnao-
Interesting idea. It facilitates what I was trying to say, meaning both STR and DEX affect combat ability (not defensive, but attack prowess).
It does however, complicate things, especially with the variations for AoO and flanking. Perhaps something more simple, like use either/or when you have combat advantage.

 

[xechnao]

xechnao-
Perhaps something more simple, like use either/or when you have combat advantage.

But this is what I meant. You choose (you say use) the better one when you have combat advantage or an AoO (be it Str or Dex).

This rule seems to promote tactical play, since, while attack rolls will usually succeed less often than before, tactical attacks such as AoO and from combat advantage will succeed as normal. This means that your combat priority becomes AoO and combat advantage tactics of your party versus enemy party.