Strength requirements for ranged weapons

[5ekyu]

This is what I meant in my previous post...

When you mention dumping Strength I immediately think of Rogues and spellcasters, none of which gains Extra Attacks and thus never care for the loading property.

Maybe Rangers are the ones most subject to this penalty, but really how many dump strength completely? And are Rangers overpowered enough to wanting to pick on them?

You might also VERY occasionally get a Fighter with low Strength. You may not like it, but from a different perspective such PC goes against the standard and IMO it's the kind of challenge that should not be hindered.

Yeah - this very specifically hones in on a very small sub-set of the high-dex-low-str martials and basically says "though shalt not be" cuz no martial bowman build is gonna see dragging 5 abilities into str for extra attacks as a better move than just Roguing up the build and letting one ranged attack with heavy dmg be their output style. A few ftr levrls maybe for features and style but let the rogue avoid the multi-shot loading woes.

Seems like its gonna wind up driving more to the rogue-fighter build style with bows and rapier which I kinda thought were the more frequent ones complained about.

So, it's either very on target bullseye or a miss, depending on which the intended targets were.

Adding or encouraging more build versatility and variety was not in the goals do that's good, cuz otherwise this would be a fail on that count.

 

[5ekyu]

Any advance of the Crossbow Expert rewrite for that side of this idea?

 

[Yunru]

Any advance of the Crossbow Expert rewrite for that side of this idea?

Not a clue, beyond it wouldn't be a blanket ignore loading.
I'm thinking maybe +proficiency to strength for thr purposes of loading.

 

[Dausuul]

So... crossbow wielders get an absurdly high Strength requirement (12 for a hand crossbow? What gives?), but they don't actually suffer any penalty for failing to meet it, since their weapons have Loading either way.

 

[Yunru]

So... crossbow wielders get an absurdly high Strength requirement (12 for a hand crossbow? What gives?), but they don't actually suffer any penalty for failing to meet it, since their weapons have Loading either way.

It's more they get a benefit for meeting it, since it would of had loading normally anyway.

 

[5ekyu]

It's more they get a benefit for meeting it, since it would of had loading normally anyway.

But there's a difference between a real benefit and a paper one. Needing an 18 strength or whatever to fire multiple shots from a heavy crossbow doesnt make them more appealing. It takes so high a strength that the dex driven attack(s) will just be ways to waste more ammo faster.

It's still driving heavy and heavier against that small subset of multi-shot *and* non-dex shooters.

Especially if crossbow expert gets strength vs loading figured in somehow but loading still allows one shot per each action type.

Prime archers shift more heavy to shortbow or hand cross with rogue, sharpshooter and crossbow expert. Longbows and extra attack guys - mostly take all the hits. So, you pick different winners but really dont seem to encourage the strength-based bow play.

 

[FrogReaver]

May I suggest a simpler rule that applies to all weapons and may solve the issue of making str not be a dump stat.

You can power attack to add damage up to double your strength mod in exchange lowering your chance to hit by half the value you increased damage by.

If desired you could allow dex bonus to either limit the max accuracy penalty for the power attack, or add in an accurate strike feature that functions in reverse. Or maybe both.

Insteading of ridding GWM and SS effect from the game you essentially make it available to all classes as a strength dependent factor. That gives incentive not to dump str and makes sword and board more competitive.

You’ll want to rework the weapon feats though.

For thematic reasons I might disallow crossbows from benefiting from these options.

 

[Yunru]

But there's a difference between a real benefit and a paper one. Needing an 18 strength or whatever to fire multiple shots from a heavy crossbow doesnt make them more appealing. It takes so high a strength that the dex driven attack(s) will just be ways to waste more ammo faster.

It's still driving heavy and heavier against that small subset of multi-shot *and* non-dex shooters.

Especially if crossbow expert gets strength vs loading figured in somehow but loading still allows one shot per each action type.

Prime archers shift more heavy to shortbow or hand cross with rogue, sharpshooter and crossbow expert. Longbows and extra attack guys - mostly take all the hits. So, you pick different winners but really dont seem to encourage the strength-based bow play.

Honestly what I really want is to rework the entire weapon system in full. Things like Loading only adding a die of damage bug me, and this is probably just going to end up part of a great behind-the-scenes whole.

 

[5ekyu]

Honestly what I really want is to rework the entire weapon system in full. Things like Loading only adding a die of damage bug me, and this is probably just going to end up part of a great behind-the-scenes whole.

Well, if thats the goal that would (in theory) satisfy your needs, this aint it.

This sets out to target high dex strength dumpers (iirc) but instead takes aim at extra attack guys only (as far as i can see) and only a sub-set of them.

 

[BookBarbarian]

When I get into a simulationist mindset I sometimes think along these lines but ultimately I find the added complexity would hurt my game rather than help it.

It would push all martials into being more MAD while keeping casters SAD by comparison.