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Strip "Background" out of classes

shamsael

First Post
If background is an option, I want background stripped as much as possible out of classes. This means that wilderness background out of rangers and druids, granted I think this would be a popular choice for people to pick for them, but I think it would be fine to characterize rangers as simply lightly armored fighters, and druids as spellcasters that harness magic of the natural world. Additionally, barbaric culture should come out of barbarian... Monk too, the Asian theme could come out, make them jedi like mystical warriors. Asian, barbaric, and wilderness themes are all very valid backgrounds but do not tie them to class because I would like to take those backgrounds with other classes or try other backgrounds with the ranger, druid, monk, or barbarian.

Couple of examples with just the class and backgrounds mentioned above:

Ranger with barbaric background (pathfinder)
Druid with Asian background (shugenja)
Barbarian with Asian background (Asian nomadic conqueror)
Monk with wilderness background (hermit)

I think in the same way that Basic D&D dictated that Dwarves, Elves and Halflings were specific classes while AD&D seperated the class race concept creating Dwarf Fighters, Elf Fighter-Wizards and Halfling Fighters, 5e could simply offer a simple version of these classes which ties the Ranger class to an assumed theme and then, for people that want to tinker, the theme can be swapped out.

We also saw this more recently in Essentials where an implied Paragon path was written into the classes but could be replaced with other paths by an experienced player.
 

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ComradeGnull

First Post
I think so far there hasn't quite been enough published to let people distinguish what is a background vs. a theme vs. a scheme.

I'd say I'm in the middle on the class vs. theme spectrum- I'd like to see all the 3rd ed. base classes from the PHB (which to me seem to be the 'core'/'iconic' options people are looking for) as classes, and probably 90% of what is left from 3/3.5e expansions and 4e turned into themes or something similar (not an expert at 4e mechanics for some of the classes, so I'm not sure how plausible this is). Here is how I would like to see it breaking down:

Background: What you did before becoming an adventurer/gaining a class level. If you want a Rogue who grew up in the forest (but isn't specialized in forest roguery) or a paladin who was raised in a monastery as a temple orphan, it goes here. Provides a few skill bonuses, maybe a minor ability.

Class: The core concept and mechanical features of your class- hit/save/damage progression, spell progression, etc. Defines very broadly how you accomplish things- spells, skills, martial techniques, a mix of the above, etc.

Theme: Picks a primarily mechanical specialty within the scope of your class. Stealth focused Rogue (vs. melee damage focused rogue or ranged rogue), generalist wizard (vs. specialist wizard), defender vs. attacker Fighter, ranged Ranger vs. dual wield Ranger, etc. This is primarily mechanical with little RP/fluff/background component.

Scheme: A specialization/focus of your class that has both mechanical and RP-components. This, to me, is where things like Urban Ranger or Cavalier Paladin or Wilderness Rogue would pop up. The Thief scheme that we've seen gives some skills points (specialization, mechanical), a feature that makes him better at one of his abilities (ditto), and an additional RP-focused ability (thieves cant). It also suggests some RP/background options. Urban Ranger/Desert Ranger/Elemental Demiplane of Ranch Dressing Ranger could supply some environment-specific bonuses, Cavalier gives bonuses when mounted or special mount abilities, etc.

So you want a Ranger who was raised by monks, fights with two weapons, and then specialized in urban environments. You pick Ranger, the Temple Orphan Background, the Dual Wield theme, and the Urban Ranger scheme. A rogue who grew up as a farmer, fights like a swashbuckler, and is best at non-urban rogueing? Commoner background, Blade theme, bandit/wilderness rogue scheme.

This is nice because it doesn't conflate the environment of your upbringing with the type of class that you play- a Fighter raised in the desert who becomes a Defender and worked as a mercenary is different from a Fighter raised in the desert who becomes a Slayer and has the Sandstorm Dervish scheme. Both guys know basic things about life in the desert that you would know from growing up there, but only one of them has abilities that are tied to that environment (n.b., I just made up Sandstorm Dervish, and I don't know if Schemes will get extended to be that detailed. He fights with scimitars made of magical sand, though).
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Not sure what wiki you're referring to, but it seems you're listing every class that has appeared in a Player's Handbook as a base class, barring illusionist. Wait, no, because you have the psionicist and shaman in there. What is this list supposed to be?

It is the list of D&D Character classes from Wikipedia.

Now I don't mind Druid eating the Shaman, and the warlord and Psion being a few themes in the first books so they could be fleshed out better later.
 

Now I don't mind Druid eating the Shaman, and the warlord and Psion being a few themes in the first books so they could be fleshed out better later.
And thus the problem of saying "iconic" classes should remain classes. You have no problem with psions and warlords being themes, even though many people would consider them iconic classes. Since there is no definition of which classes are iconic, it boils down to "The classes I like best should remain classes," which is hardly surprising but also hardly informative.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
And thus the problem of saying "iconic" classes should remain classes. You have no problem with psions and warlords being themes, even though many people would consider them iconic classes. Since there is no definition of which classes are iconic, it boils down to "The classes I like best should remain classes," which is hardly surprising but also hardly informative.

No. I said the Psion and Warlord should be either:

Classes
or
Several Themes.

The warlord should be a class that does all his 4E martial buffs, healing, and extra attacks. Or there should be 4 themes of the warlord: a buff giver, a shout healer, an attack giver, and a jack of all tactics theme.
 

No. I said the Psion and Warlord should be either:

Classes
or
Several Themes.

The warlord should be a class that does all his 4E martial buffs, healing, and extra attacks. Or there should be 4 themes of the warlord: a buff giver, a shout healer, an attack giver, and a jack of all tactics theme.
Okay, but if there's 4 themes of the warlord, then by definition it's not a class. Themes are not tied to specific classes, they can be selected by any class.

At any rate, if I'm still misunderstanding you, my point would still stand with respect to the shaman, which you're fine witbh having the druid subsume, but others would not be.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I think the following classes should still be classes in 5E." Just don't try to dress it up as something more than your opinion, by calling your favourite classes "iconic" or what have you.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Okay, but if there's 4 themes of the warlord, then by definition it's not a class. Themes are not tied to specific classes, they can be selected by any class.

At any rate, if I'm still misunderstanding you, my point would still stand with respect to the shaman, which you're fine witbh having the druid subsume, but others would not be.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I think the following classes should still be classes in 5E." Just don't try to dress it up as something more than your opinion, by calling your favourite classes "iconic" or what have you.


To me, no class deserves to be a class if the system is built a certain way. They could all be themes if you build it that way.

You could go back to Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue but then you'll either have to make a LOT of themes to match every subclass+style combination or give everyone 2 themes.

Class + 2 styles is actually how my homebrew RPG swirls.works. There is no ranger class there. To make a 3.5 style ranger, you'd pick the Warrior, Sneak, or Knight classs, pick Ranger style, then pick either Archer or Dual Weapon style.
 

Sadrik

First Post
I think so far there hasn't quite been enough published to let people distinguish what is a background vs. a theme vs. a scheme.

Very true.
I also agree the 3e base classes would be fine minus the barbarian.
I see it kind of like this:
Bard can use spells, but more as non-mystical effects
Rogue sneak attack and skills
Druid no wilderness assumption, but certainly tied to the natural world
Ranger no wilderness assumption, but lightly armored skillful warrior
Paladin I have no idea, but should be in the game (I concede that but not a cleric fighter, perhaps some unique way of using spells)
Monk no asian assumption (funky weapons etc), more like just a psychic warrior, perhaps spells used in a unique way. Also the assumption of an unarmed combatant could go away too. I think Jedi is a very good correlation.
Wizard as is
Cleric as is, other than making sure there is an option to not have religion attached, being a mystic
Sorcerer this can be a warlock and even psion if they want to go there
Fighter as is
 

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Okay, but if there's 4 themes of the warlord, then by definition it's not a class. Themes are not tied to specific classes, they can be selected by any class.

Not entirely true. Mearls has already said that there will be class- or classes-specific themes, giving the example of the Necromancer theme which is for arcane and divine classes only. So it would be possible to make a few warlord themes and make them fighter- and paladin-only, turn the shaman into some druid-only themes, turn the bard into some arcane themes and some rogue themes, and so forth, though whether you'd want to split those particular classes is up for debate.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I like the idea of backgrounds. All characters have a backstory, after all, and it is nice for that backstory to actually mean something in-game. But that's just my two coppers.
 

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