D&D 5E Subclasses impact on class value

[cbwjm]

I guess my problem is that I like the idea of the class, I like 98% of the execution, but certainly makes the other 2% that drives me nuts stand out.

Fair enough. I'm sure if I looked at some of the subclasses I'd find things that stand out as weird. I think it has been mentioned that a rogue scout would still gain thieves' cant and thieves' tools which I find to be kind of weird. It's one reason why I think it would be better for all subclasses to start at level 1. That way you could say that a thief and assassin gain thieves cant and thieves tools while a rogue starting as a scout might gain another language and survival instead. Currently, the scout starts out as a typical rogue, doing the normal rogue duties and suddenly at level 3, they become skilled nature guides. I do find that odd.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Fair enough. I'm sure if I looked at some of the subclasses I'd find things that stand out as weird. I think it has been mentioned that a rogue scout would still gain thieves' cant and thieves' tools which I find to be kind of weird. It's one reason why I think it would be better for all subclasses to start at level 1. That way you could say that a thief and assassin gain thieves cant and thieves tools while a rogue starting as a scout might gain another language and survival instead. Currently, the scout starts out as a typical rogue, doing the normal rogue duties and suddenly at level 3, they become skilled nature guides. I do find that odd.

I think the reasoning was that they wanted players to be able to a feel or their class before choosing a sub-class, that way they can make an informed decision regarding which to choose.

At the same time, that decision creates dissonance when the sub-class chances the theme of the class as drastically as the rogue to scout example you provided, above.

 

[Eubani]

There is good arguments for both all starting at first or none, whichever way it should be the same.

 

[Alexemplar]

Yes, that makes it a little better, but it doesn't explain why the ability works that way from an in-game perspective or why I can create a storm sorcerer with being able to cast a single storm-related spell.

I'm not saying the mechanics are bad. I'm saying the ability doesn't feel right to me.

Yes, it's a funny corner case rules interaction, but the player doesn't have to take it.

The player id the one making the meta decision to have a STORM Sorcerer know and cast Comprehend Languages in the first place. Presumably for meta reasons.

Cast some more thematically appropriate spells. There's not enough space to list every spell that could possibly relate to storms, energy, etc so they just made it broadly apply to all spells so as not to artificially limit the player, who they assume will pick appropriately thematic spells for a Storm themed Sorcerer.

If the player makes the meta decision to stray from the theme, they encounter the meta consequences of non-thematic abilities.

 

[MoonSong]

Yes, it's a funny corner case rules interaction, but the player doesn't have to take it.

The player id the one making the meta decision to have a STORM Sorcerer know and cast Comprehend Languages in the first place. Presumably for meta reasons.

Cast some more thematically appropriate spells. There's not enough space to list every spell that could possibly relate to storms, energy, etc so they just made it broadly apply to all spells so as not to artificially limit the player, who they assume will pick appropriately thematic spells for a Storm themed Sorcerer.

If the player makes the meta decision to stray from the theme, they encounter the meta consequences of non-thematic abilities.

A very common corner case, since there are only three official flavors, they are quite strong, one alters your appearance to look inhuman, another switches between weak and unstable, storm is the lesser of three evils, not necessarily a theme so cool you just want to have.

 

[gyor]

Fair enough. I'm sure if I looked at some of the subclasses I'd find things that stand out as weird. I think it has been mentioned that a rogue scout would still gain thieves' cant and thieves' tools which I find to be kind of weird. It's one reason why I think it would be better for all subclasses to start at level 1. That way you could say that a thief and assassin gain thieves cant and thieves tools while a rogue starting as a scout might gain another language and survival instead. Currently, the scout starts out as a typical rogue, doing the normal rogue duties and suddenly at level 3, they become skilled nature guides. I do find that odd.

Thieve's cant for Rogues Scout makes more sense if you fluff it as a wilderness dialect made up of nature sounds.

And the thieves tools still help the Scout when scouting rural buildings and ancient ruins filled with traps.

 

[Alexemplar]

A very common corner case, since there are only three official flavors, they are quite strong, one alters your appearance to look inhuman, another switches between weak and unstable, storm is the lesser of three evils, not necessarily a theme so cool you just want to have.

Not very common. Only common for Storm Sorcerers who choose to learn/cast Comprehend Languages and specifically choose to move 10 feet as a result. The movement is not mandatory. It's only possible if one chooses it.

That the Draconic origin causes you to grow scales and the Wild Magic Sorcerer has an optional (yet somewhat popular) highly randomized mechanic attached to it doesn't make the occurrence that much more common neither of those facts force one to make the aforementioned choices.

 

[MoonSong]

Not very common. Only common for Storm Sorcerers who choose to learn/cast Comprehend Languages and specifically choose to move 10 feet as a result. The movement is not mandatory. It's only possible if one chooses it.

That the Draconic origin causes you to grow scales and the Wild Magic Sorcerer has an optional (yet somewhat popular) highly randomized mechanic attached to it doesn't make the occurrence that much more common neither of those facts force one to make the aforementioned choices.

I meant that storm sorcerers choosing non-thematic spells isn't that uncommon since not everybody want that particular theme, instead settle for it.

 

[Alexemplar]

I meant that storm sorcerers choosing non-thematic spells isn't that uncommon since not everybody want that particular theme, instead settle for it.

It should be noted that the Wild Magic roll table is optional. Just talk to the DM.

"Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, the DM can have you roll a d20. If you roll a1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect."

 

[CapnZapp]

It should be noted that the Wild Magic roll table is optional. Just talk to the DM.

"Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, the DM can have you roll a d20. If you roll a1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect."

It should be noted that without it, you just gimped yourself of one of the main strengths of the (sub)class.

Why would anyone trade away the extra hit point per level and free mage armor of draconic if they didn't get advantage on anything and everything?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app