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D&D 5E Succubus Warlock with Familiar...

Grumbleputty

Explorer
One of my big villains in the adventure I'm writing is a Succubus with a few levels of Warlock, who has an imp familiar. Reading the description of her charm ability, it specifies a target she can see (not that can see her). The thing is, of course, she can see through her familiar's eyes.

Would you allow for her to charm targets through her familiar? I go back and forth, it feels a little "power gamer"ish, but it could also liven up a few of my encounters. Is there a rules clarification somewhere I'm missing?
 

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jgsugden

Legend
You're the DM. You're telling a good story. Ask yourself, "Does this ability make for a good story if I used it?"

If so, go for it. Personally, it sounds interesting to me, but I'd want to augment the scenario to figure out how the succubus 'seduces' someone through the familiar. I'd also be careful to consider what type of familiar made sense for this and perhaps would not go for the imp/quasit route as they make less sense in this scenario of seduction.
 

neogod22

Explorer
As a DM, you can do whatever you want. That being said, I wouldn't suggest it, unless your players are really good or strong. Succubi have a very powerful charm that if you ensnare the right players with it, the party is done.

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neogod22

Explorer
But for clarification of the rules, monsters don't have the same limitations as players as far as magic and spell like abilities go. For example if a player charms a creature, as soon as that player harms it, or one of his friends harm it, the spell ends. If the creature was hostile from the start, it has advantage on the save. With the succubus, those rules don't apply. If you're charmed by her (and failed your initial save), you don't get to save again until she attacks you, then you you only get a save, not automatic spell failure.

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Caliban

Rules Monkey
You could just say she has a custom invocation (succubus warlocks only) that allows her to do it. Voice of the Chain master already allows speech and vision through your familiar with an unlimited range (on the same plane).

In any case, monsters and NPC's don't have to follow the same rules as PC's.
 

So a few comments and potential suggestions to ponder.

First, I advise against adding class levels to monsters as a means of beefing them up or making them special. It is a tempting prospect, but is counterintuitive to the process for a few reasons. It over complicates monsters with a bunch of fiddly bits and passive bonuses that make then more difficult to run and most of these are frankly things that players will never notice due to them being under the hood. Additionally, player classes are designed intentionally to be class cannons in nature (even the tanks), meaning they dish out damage, bit cannot take it near as well. This is the exact opposite of what you want when designing a monster, particularly a "boss" as they are designed to take hits and deal damage in a way that hopefully won't tpk the players.

You are better off adding more health, or defensive abilities to make a monster stronger than the standard succubus. Alternatively, add the ability for her to cast warlock spells and give her a few of the invocations that make sense if you want. It still gives the warlock vibe and gives her the concept of having a bit more magic utility compared to the standard succubus. However, ALL of these needs to be balanced according to the charts listed in the DMG. Figure out how powerfull you want her to be first, then alter the stats to get her there.

Second, to answer your question, there is nothing that states directly according to the charm ability that she cannot use it on a target through her familiar if she can see them. However in the familiar ability itself, it does only allow you to cast spells, not other abilities. Charm is not a spell. If you wish to add a custom invocation for her, that is an option (though again I'd advise you to just do the above instead of class levels).

...that said, while RAW kind of allows it and the charm doesn't require a succubus to be seen to charm someone, RAI is arguably different. In literally every source of fantasy setting and folklore/legends involving succubi, they use their bodies to seduce those attracted to them (usually men, but not always). While sometimes this occurs in dreams (the main reason they don't require the succubi mechanically to be seen), even in those cases they appear *in* the dreams of the person being seduced. The original concept of succubi in folklore comes from two sources, explaining sleep paralysis and women seducing men to gain something from them. D&D from a mechanical sense has decided to make night hags fulfill this former role, while the succubus fulfills the second. There is a reason both monsters have the ethereal ability and are similar, but each have a specialized ability to fulfill this role.

In essence, this means that the succubus monster as written uses their body to seduce someone, implying that they are seen by the person being seduced. This would make them seducing someone through a familiar...strange. The entire essence of this monster is to appear before a person and seduce them visually. It is the core concept for it, and to do it indirectly is to arguably make it no longer a succubus, but a random fiend who charms others. To say nothing of the idea of the players being on the receiving end of an ability that would be most frustrating. The ethereal ability is already a potent tool for her to hit and run. She can appear before the fighter (or any player alone), seduce them, and shift back away to escape with very little chance of being stopped short of powerful magic.

Third, and a minor gripe, a devil/demon themselves becoming an actual warlock, a person who has sworn a pact with a greater power, is a bit weird. They are the sort to *give* Faustian bargains, not make them. There are a number of ways you could perhaps explain it admittedly though (perhaps she's sworn to a more powerful succubus / devil? Hopefully you've put thought into this).

Hope it helps.
 

neogod22

Explorer
I seen a warlock drider in a module I ran, and it wasn't a boss fight, it was a random encounter in an AL module. So saying you shouldn't put classes to monsters is stupid, because even WOTC do it. Warlock is a actually perfect because of their limited spells and spell slots. They make better villains than heroes anyway. There is nothing wrong with modifying monsters to fit your story, especially boss characters. You want to try and make them as unforgettable as possible. A succubus is a great villain, because of their nature, she should be encountered in places the characters can't attack her, or always be surrounded by "allies." The great thing about fiends is, even if the characters kill her, she can always come back. You can always make her stronger and harder to deal with.

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Sadras

Legend
First, I advise against adding class levels to monsters as a means of beefing them up or making them special. It is a tempting prospect, but is counterintuitive to the process for a few reasons. It over complicates monsters with a bunch of fiddly bits and passive bonuses that make then more difficult to run and most of these are frankly things that players will never notice due to them being under the hood. Additionally, player classes are designed intentionally to be class cannons in nature (even the tanks), meaning they dish out damage, bit cannot take it near as well. This is the exact opposite of what you want when designing a monster, particularly a "boss" as they are designed to take hits and deal damage in a way that hopefully won't tpk the players.

Disagree with the above.
Complicating monsters - I don't believe classes to be all that complicated (you do not need to add a background choice, select the languages along with the tool proficiencies...) You can, but you don't have to.
Class/Glass Cannon - PC classes are quite resilient and especially when working together as a team which is the norm, so definitely do not equate them to glass cannons.
Furthermore, we are not aware how many hp the OP has ascribed to the succubus, what I mean is, she might not be your typical boss monster with a fat hp total.

Third, and a minor gripe, a devil/demon themselves becoming an actual warlock, a person who has sworn a pact with a greater power, is a bit weird. They are the sort to *give* Faustian bargains, not make them. There are a number of ways you could perhaps explain it admittedly though (perhaps she's sworn to a more powerful succubus / devil? Hopefully you've put thought into this).

Possible pact with Otherworldy/Far Realm creature or even a fallen entity (Chained God).
She could also be a spy within the Blood War, having aligned herself to one side and has been rewarded with warlock abilities to continue her duplicitous arrangement and report back.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
So a few comments and potential suggestions to ponder.

First, I advise against adding class levels to monsters as a means of beefing them up or making them special. It is a tempting prospect, but is counterintuitive to the process for a few reasons. It over complicates monsters with a bunch of fiddly bits and passive bonuses that make then more difficult to run and most of these are frankly things that players will never notice due to them being under the hood. Additionally, player classes are designed intentionally to be class cannons in nature (even the tanks), meaning they dish out damage, bit cannot take it near as well. This is the exact opposite of what you want when designing a monster, particularly a "boss" as they are designed to take hits and deal damage in a way that hopefully won't tpk the players.

As someone who regularly adds classes to monsters, and custom builds monsters and then adds standard or modified classes to them, I completely disagree with several of your points.

First off: building monsters and building classes on to them is great practice. Several of the classed monsters I've created I know far better than any monster in the book. I could run some of them right now, without even looking at my notes.
Second: Who cares if the players notice? The goal is to change how the fight plays out, not to tip the players off to the fact that the Orc in front of them has 6 fighter levels.
Third: upping damage is almost entirely the point, as 5E is terribly soft with all of their monsters.
Fourth: why would you want your "boss" to not risk a TPK? Isn't that the point of a boss fight? To require additional skill and guts and coordination above and beyond your casual encounters? If the "boss fight" is no risk of a TPK, what's the point really? Is it even a boss?

Now, for the record, I run doubleplus deadly games. Every encounter runs the risk of on average, 2 people dropping and 1 person dying. The world is scary and dangerous and the players avoid that by being smart, not by killing everything in the path.
 

Grumbleputty

Explorer
Thanks everyone for the great advice and a fun debate! To provide a bit more background on my succubus, she's one of the main villains behind the scenes in my adventure, and at first she's pursuing her plan and isn't even aware of the party. Depending on how many clues they uncover and how they might inadvertently help or hurt another competing faction, she might not even engage the party directly- mostly she'll have her imp watching the party while she pursues her own agenda. In any case, I haven't buffed her HP much, because she has so many ways to escape from the party (charm, ethereal, expeditious retreat and command), and every reason to avoid a stand-up fight.

The thing the party needs to worry about is the thing she's trying to summon :)
 

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