Suggestion Sucks

[Elder-Basilisk]

The best use of a suggestion spell I've seen involved a Nyrondese noble our party was escorting through the Theocracy of the Pale. He was starting to dress down a Pholtan priest because he didn't think he was getting the treatment he deserved as a noble and was on the point of saying, something like "maybe it's time for another Cuthbert torch party in Wintershiven" when our wizard hit him with a stilled, silent suggestion: "Apologize to the priest and comport yourself respectfully lest you end up in a New Dawn Camp." The noble failed his save and the plot device carting off to a New Dawn camp never happened. Too bad really. I read the module later, and the repentant Pholtan noble was a much nicer man.

Anyway, suggestion is a very powerful spell but it has to be adjudicated carefully. IMO, the reasonableness of the suggestion is key. A suggestion to flee or surrender is only reasonable if the party making the suggestion is clearly in a superior position and surrendering will not inevitably result in the party's execution. A suggestion that "the real enemy is miles behind you" is only reasonable if there actually IS another enemy that the character knows of miles behind him. A suggestion that the fighter kiss the succubus is probably only reasonable if the fighter has read too many romance novels and suspects that the succubus will melt in his arms when she feels the fiery passion of his kiss, stop fighting, and show him a good time. A good suggestion will generally take the context into consideration. For instance, a bugbear ordered to attack the PCs might be susceptible to the suggestion "He's just using you as cannon fodder to cover his retreat--if you run now you can save yourself and he'll get what's coming to him." If the bugbear's leader actually is that kind of guy (and they usually are), that's a pretty reasonable suggestion.

The PHB's examples have to be understood in this context. The pool of acid actually looks like a pool of water (some acid does look like water) and the character in question doesn't know that it's acid. The knight who will give his horse away to a peasant is a knight and, by implication, shares a set of values that include humility and generousity, and a set of stories that include similar acts of generousity. In the context of the medieval Romance, that's an accepted form of displaying virtue. The example of the fighter holding back the dragon for a few seconds is clearly a skilled fighter who is in a party of skilled adventurers rather than a raw recruit who would be unable to accomplish that goal.

On the other hand, Suggestion has a lot of non-combat uses. "These aren't the droids you're looking for" is a fairly reasonable suggestion--after all, Astromech and translation droids are fairly common. (Sure, they looked similar to the droids the trooper was looking for so he got a bonus to his save--fortunately he was weak-willed). "Maybe they can make you a better offer; you should listen to what they have to say" would be another good suggestion. "You really need to use the toilet; nobody will know if you just abandon your post for a minute to use the john" would be another good suggestion--especially if the guard had been given something to drink before his shift.

 

[Kemrain]

My best use of Suggestion thus far. I told a member of a group of 4 guards, after they'd subdued my companions and I'd killed 2 of them, to "run and get help." Once he left his friend pulled a knife and held it to one of my companion's throats. I did my best 'look scary' pose and told him "If you kill him, I'll drag you screaming to hell. Put the knife down, and I'll show you mercy." Glad they were multiclassed warriors- abysmal will saves. Of course, playing a half-succubus with a 22 charisma helped, too.

Like stated above, Suggestion can be a hard spell to use if you don't have an understanding with your GM. It's also hard to figure out what the extent of the spell can be. Once the spell is over, do you realise you were compelled? If you were suggested to do something reasonable, and the spell ends, do you stop as it says, or is it feasable to simply continue as if nothign happened?

Take the Red Dragon example. If there really was another source of treasure nearby, but the spell expired before you finished colelcting it, if the Dragon saw that this could still be good for him is it believable that the dragon would continue to assist?

- Kemrain the Suggestively Fiendish.

 

[noeuphoria]

I think it's a spell that needs to be adjudicated before it's cast. Because, like I said, the word "reasonable" is where all the arguements come in. If someone told me to leave battle, I wouldn't put myself in harm's way to do it, that's not something my character would do, and since he's not under control, he'll follow the suggestion, but he'll treat it like he had an idea to leave, and leave safely. If someone suggested I bathe in the acid, would it be "reasonable" to disrobe first? After all, if my character ususally takes off his clothes to go swimming, wouldn't he now, since he's not under some kind of ongoing control. I could see the uses being much more prevalent outside of combat, b/c when you're fighting for your life, very few things that involve you ignoring your enemies to do something else seem "reasonable".

 

[Thanee]

Well, a suggestion to a paladin has to be worded carefully, because they have very strong beliefs and suggestion does not override those! That's also one thing, where good-aligned parties have a clear advantage, since it is not reasonable for a good character to backstab his buddies, for example... for the evil one, however...

I kinda agree with the player, that it's not very reasonable for the paladin to simply run away. There should be a bit more of a reason stated. Remember, that the spell let's the target believe what is being said, so you could simply make up something, which works as a reason. It's certainly possible in most situations to find a pretty easy wording, which will work as desired.

In case of a good or bad wording, the save DC can be adjusted (as the spell says, I would just extend it to give a bonus for a not so good wording), but the overall effect should not simply be ignored.

Besides, the paladin probably does not have enough Spellcraft to know the spell effect (i.e. that trying to provoke AoO is clearly metagaming).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Planesdragon]

How do you guys adjudicate this stupid spell.

Suggestion, like all enchantments, is a problematic NPC spell because it takes away a player's ability to control their character. It's also an easy DM's crutch.

FWIW, the next time someone winds up charmed, I'll probably allow opposed charisma checks from either the charmee or anyone of their allies to negate the effect.

And, of course, I might just let the expenditure of an action point automatically nulliy a lesser enchantmetn spell...

 

[FireLance]

This may be meta-gaming, but I would consider the effect that Suggestion is a 3rd-level spell and allow it to have an effect in line with that power. A suggestion to run or depart from combat is not unreasonable. Scare is only a 2nd-level spell, after all. A suggestion to ignore the caster is not unreasonable, either as Sanctuary is a 1st-level spell and Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell. Even a suggestion to close one's eyes may be possible as Blindness is a 2nd-level spell. A suggestion to do something else could have the effect of a Tasha's Hideous Laughter which effectively prevents the character from taking actions for 1 round/level.

A Suggestion should not be able to duplicate the effect of any other 3rd or higher level spell except under very specific circumstances. These would be spells like Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, etc.

 

[Thanee]

A suggestion to run or depart from combat is not unreasonable.

Not at all. But it must also be a reasonable course of action, given, that what is being said as part of the suggestion is taken as granted.

For a paladin, unless a decent reason is given, it is simply not a reasonable course of action to abandon his allies and flee from combat.

For a goblin it probably would be reasonable.

It depends a bit on the target.

Scare is only a 2nd-level spell, after all.

But a paladin is immune to fear.

(Yes, I know, that suggestion is no [fear] effect. )

Bye
Thanee

 

[Brisk-sg]

"Leave the City and Wait until I come For You." is the common phrasing our DM uses in the campaign (Noeuphoria and mine).

The suggestion itself isn't much of a problem. The problem comes into how you character acts to meet this suggestion.

For instance, one of my characters, Gulrik Fishtaker (Fighter 10/Ranger 1/Horizon Walker 1) was recently suggested by an Illithid on a recent attack in the City of the Glasspool. He was told "Leave the City and Wait until I come for You.", which is fine for a sugestion in and of itself. We had a bit of an arguement when it came to me actually leaving the city. Gulrik was surrounded by Kuo-toas when he was suggested. Getting to the city gate required passing through several groups of kuo-toas (we were fighting about 30 of them).

I explained to the DM that since we are in the middle of an intense for you life battle, that Gulrik was going to do standard moves and try to dispatch any foes that stood in his way to escape from the city.

I personally believe this is acceptable as suggestion gives you a reasonable course of action to fullfill. It IS reasonable to leave the city, keeping my life intact so I can wait outside until he comes for me, It is unreasonable to drop my guard and let everything cut me down, thus making it so I can not carry out the suggestion. If I am dead, I certainly can't meet the Mind Flayer outside of the city.

I made a strong case for it, and also explained that Kuo-toas are my favored enemy, and I have Finslayer, an Intelligent Longsword dedicated to killing Kuo-toes with an ego of 22 who per the description will try to dominate me if I ever flee from battle with Kuo-toes. He did allow me to do it, though he thought it was 'stupid'.

I personally interpret Suggestion as giving you a suggested course of action that you must carry out. How you carry it out is only limited in how the suggestion is worded, it doesn't suddenly make you stupid or suicidal. A suggested character should take actions that make sense toward meeting that goal, but not to the exclusion of other dangers not mentioned in the suggestion. If the kuo-toes are not mentioned in the suggestion, and they are a threat to my character, and thus to the goal of the suggestion, it should be reasonable to defend myself from them.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I agree that it's important to remember it is a 3rd-lvl spell. Command is 1st-lvl and that can make a character run away, so I don't see any reason why suggestion shouldn't be able to do the same.

Players will always find a way to rationalize why a suggestion is unreasonable for their characters. If a paladin says he would never abandon his friends, don't just take the player's word for it. Has he shown this in the past, or has he withdrawn before? Don't get hung up on the wording of the spell. And don't allow yourself to get hung up by the players. Bottom line is, he failed his save. When you water down the effects or negate them altogether (despite a failed save), you're really just nerfing enchanters and spellcasters who rely on the spell.

I'd put more emphasis on completing the suggestion in a reasonable manner, rather than arguing over if the suggestion was reasonable to begin with. If the paladin is told to run away, I wouldn't make him run blindly through threatened squares when there are less dangerous escape routes. I'd also give a paladin a +4 bonus to the save. Ya' know, suggesting the paladin throw down his sword and grapple with the ancient red dragon b/c it would be much more heroic and knightly can be far better than telling him to run away!

Also remember that suggestion is a compulsion spell; it's not like the target exactly has a say in the matter...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This interpretation makes it the equivalent of a 3rd level Really Limited Wish. Suggestion isn't a catch all spell that can duplicate the effect of any other spell of lower level. Suggestion is a powerful spell in its own right (as the examples in the spell description demonstrate--none of them could be accomplished by lower level spell).

Actually Really Limited Wish isn't a bad comparison. Like the Wish spells, Suggestion is an almost infinitely flexible spell. That flexibility, however, comes with a downside: it has to be reasonable.

A suggestion to run or depart from combat may be reasonable if:
1. Running or departing from combat is possible (to a foe who is surrounded or whose exit route is blocked cannot feasibly leave combat)
2. There is a clear reason to leave combat. If it looks likely that the target will be a casualty if he doesn't leave, or if the party's side does not seem to be doing well, it's reasonable. If the target is in no danger, it would have to be phrased differently--"give up the attack and let the others get some glory" could conceivably work on a foe who just killed two demons and is moving to kill a third.

A suggestion to ignore the caster because "there are more important/more dangerous foes" may be reasonable but it won't be if the caster has incinerated half of the target's allies with a fireball and is obviously dangerous. Nor does it continue to be reasonable if the caster attacks him.

A suggestion to close one's eyes in the midst of a battle will very very rarely be reasonable. If the caster is wearing a hood and a veil, then it might be reasonable to suggest: "Only medusas wear hoods and veils, close your eyes so you won't be turned to stone."

A suggestion: "Why don't you spend five full round actions laughing because your companion's incompetent swordsmanship is so funny" will almost never be reasonable.

This may be meta-gaming, but I would consider the effect that Suggestion is a 3rd-level spell and allow it to have an effect in line with that power. A suggestion to run or depart from combat is not unreasonable. Scare is only a 2nd-level spell, after all. A suggestion to ignore the caster is not unreasonable, either as Sanctuary is a 1st-level spell and Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell. Even a suggestion to close one's eyes may be possible as Blindness is a 2nd-level spell. A suggestion to do something else could have the effect of a Tasha's Hideous Laughter which effectively prevents the character from taking actions for 1 round/level.

A Suggestion should not be able to duplicate the effect of any other 3rd or higher level spell except under very specific circumstances. These would be spells like Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, etc.