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Suggestions for a new DM?

oper

First Post
Hey guys!

So this is my third or fourth time DM-ing (the first few were one-shots) and I'm pretty much in over my head. I made the mistake of letting the players do a level 20 character build with very little restrictions. The original plan was to just do another one-shot, but they got so attached to the characters that they want to turn it into a small campaign.

Anyways I was wondering if any of you have advice for me. The characters in the group are a Cleric, Monk, and Gunslinger (he took the stats from the book that isn't quite out yet). Not only are they all level 20, they were made at level 20 so each one has some very powerful gear (that I doubt you would normally see in a 1-20 campaign).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 

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RoryN

First Post
Well, I would have to agree you're in a bit over your head. My advice of not starting out with level 20 characters won't do you any good now.

I don't know how much high level stuff is out and about for PF, and for you to create a high level campaign for the players is a tough order. It's so much easier on the DM to start the characters out nice and slow so that he/she can control a little bit of the power.

Personally, I don't like giving the players anything for "free". In other words, you start at 1st level and work your way up. If you happen to die, you come back in with a 1st level character. It's just the way I've done things since back in the AD&D days. If you want to give them more levels and magical items, you need to control it. Maybe you can approach them and you can all come up with a comprimise of some sort to help you, the DM, out.
 

paradox42

First Post
Very few people on this board have run games beyond level 15 or so; this site is the origin of the E6 game style (where level 6 is the cap before "Epic").

I'm one of the few who's gone really high, though I've never done it with PF as yet (still updating my old campaign setting from 3.5 to Pathfinder incorporating changes based on in-game events from the last Epic game).

So if you're willing to accept advice from a 3.5E grognard, I'll suggest first and foremost that you understand the high-CR monsters in the Bestiary (preferably both of them) thoroughly as your first move. Those which mention tactical options, follow closely and try to picture what those actions will do to PCs when they're used. In an "average" 20th-level game, if such a thing exists, most monsters (yes, even the super-nasty CR 20 ones) will last at best a round or two before being taken down or out. So you don't need to necessarily consider all the monster's options- just consider your first priorities with them. This will cut down a great deal on the preparation work you need to do. Also, since you're new to this sort of game, I advise sticking closely to the book-given stats, and not trying to customize monsters much (or at all) nor making NPC villains if you can avoid it- even though NPCs are usually far more effective opponents at 20 than monsters right from the book.

Your party has only 3 characters, and they're lacking two notable things from a standard party: (1) Arcane magic, and (2) a real tank. A 20th-level Monk can do a credible impression of a tank if built correctly, but he really isn't one- his BAB is much lower and he can't dish out nearly as much damage per attack. His big thing, if the player built him well, will be Combat Maneuvers- he'll be trying to Grapple, Trip, or otherwise take enemies out of the fight before the other party members get around to dealing with them more permanently. These holes give you openings to send really nasty opponents against them, if you feel the need to; Swarms should give them fits, as should enemies with high DR. Also, with that party combination, they'll be virtually incapable of speedy long-distance travel, so enemies that can Teleport at will (such as powerful demons) will likely be able to make hit-and-run attacks on them easily. Also, your group can't do "Scry-N'-Fry," the bane of many a GM's BBEG, so you're ahead of the game there.

The last piece of generic advice I can offer is to pull out all the stops. Don't hold back anything out of fear of killing or hurting the characters- these are 20th-level here, the best of the best, with powers lower characters can only dream of having. 20th-level characters can literally take on whole armies and win- in fact, one of my parties did exactly that at 21st level (it was 7 characters, but they took on an army of about 2000 orcs led by a 15th-level Barbarian chief and several advisors and subordinates above 10th- and took them out in about 10 total rounds with few to no orc survivors and little more than scratches on themselves). 20th-level gaming is all about over-the-top crazy stuff.

With more specifics about the party, and what they've done so far, I might be able to offer more specific advice. Can you give us more details about what the party did already? What was the one-shot like, for example? Were there any dangling plot-threads left over from that?
 
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Dingo333

First Post
while I have never played at epic level, It feels like, at level 20, there is nothing to challange you on this plane (material)

Planar travel seems like a good way to challange the PC, exchange the orc tribe in Paradox's example for say, a demon horde, and maybe the battle is a bit harder (demon powers vs whatever the orcs were)

Also, as a powerful cleric, I can see him/her leading a holy army to vanquish (alignment opposing enemy) and help (their alignment) win their planar struggle
 

oper

First Post
Well, I would have to agree you're in a bit over your head. My advice of not starting out with level 20 characters won't do you any good now.

I don't know how much high level stuff is out and about for PF, and for you to create a high level campaign for the players is a tough order. It's so much easier on the DM to start the characters out nice and slow so that he/she can control a little bit of the power.

Personally, I don't like giving the players anything for "free". In other words, you start at 1st level and work your way up. If you happen to die, you come back in with a 1st level character. It's just the way I've done things since back in the AD&D days. If you want to give them more levels and magical items, you need to control it. Maybe you can approach them and you can all come up with a comprimise of some sort to help you, the DM, out.

That makes sense, and I do plan on doing that for my first "real" campaign. We just have two other campaigns going on at the moment in our group and this was intended to be a non-serious "fun/comical" session as well as give me a little more experience being a DM. We will see how this next session goes to see if I am going to continue with these characters.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
 

oper

First Post
Very few people on this board have run games beyond level 15 or so; this site is the origin of the E6 game style (where level 6 is the cap before "Epic").

I'm one of the few who's gone really high, though I've never done it with PF as yet (still updating my old campaign setting from 3.5 to Pathfinder incorporating changes based on in-game events from the last Epic game).

So if you're willing to accept advice from a 3.5E grognard, I'll suggest first and foremost that you understand the high-CR monsters in the Bestiary (preferably both of them) thoroughly as your first move. Those which mention tactical options, follow closely and try to picture what those actions will do to PCs when they're used. In an "average" 20th-level game, if such a thing exists, most monsters (yes, even the super-nasty CR 20 ones) will last at best a round or two before being taken down or out. So you don't need to necessarily consider all the monster's options- just consider your first priorities with them. This will cut down a great deal on the preparation work you need to do. Also, since you're new to this sort of game, I advise sticking closely to the book-given stats, and not trying to customize monsters much (or at all) nor making NPC villains if you can avoid it- even though NPCs are usually far more effective opponents at 20 than monsters right from the book.

Your party has only 3 characters, and they're lacking two notable things from a standard party: (1) Arcane magic, and (2) a real tank. A 20th-level Monk can do a credible impression of a tank if built correctly, but he really isn't one- his BAB is much lower and he can't dish out nearly as much damage per attack. His big thing, if the player built him well, will be Combat Maneuvers- he'll be trying to Grapple, Trip, or otherwise take enemies out of the fight before the other party members get around to dealing with them more permanently. These holes give you openings to send really nasty opponents against them, if you feel the need to; Swarms should give them fits, as should enemies with high DR. Also, with that party combination, they'll be virtually incapable of speedy long-distance travel, so enemies that can Teleport at will (such as powerful demons) will likely be able to make hit-and-run attacks on them easily. Also, your group can't do "Scry-N'-Fry," the bane of many a GM's BBEG, so you're ahead of the game there.

The last piece of generic advice I can offer is to pull out all the stops. Don't hold back anything out of fear of killing or hurting the characters- these are 20th-level here, the best of the best, with powers lower characters can only dream of having. 20th-level characters can literally take on whole armies and win- in fact, one of my parties did exactly that at 21st level (it was 7 characters, but they took on an army of about 2000 orcs led by a 15th-level Barbarian chief and several advisors and subordinates above 10th- and took them out in about 10 total rounds with few to no orc survivors and little more than scratches on themselves). 20th-level gaming is all about over-the-top crazy stuff.

With more specifics about the party, and what they've done so far, I might be able to offer more specific advice. Can you give us more details about what the party did already? What was the one-shot like, for example? Were there any dangling plot-threads left over from that?

I started out playing in 3.5 and have most of my experience there. I guess it doesn’t help that 2 of the 3 players have probably 4 or 5 years experience on me.

So far we have had 1 session. The first half was a few small fights leading up eventually to the Mu Spore (taken from bestiary 2). It is CR 20, but was a rather worthy opponent. Even though nearly everyone had their full attack each round, the beast lasted about 10 rounds and took down the gunslinger to about ¼ hp. The problem I had with this was that a major part of its attack is to be able to grapple each person every time it hits. Because every character in the party has an item with freedom of movement on it, or had it cast, I was never able to execute this grapple.

The next part of the session was a little bit of role-playing in order to find a Jabberwock (CR 23 also taken from bestiary 2). Part of the role-playing was finding out they would be facing a Jabberwock and a chance to prepare for the fight. This was definitely a mistake as doing so meant that they were able to take it down in about 3 rounds and taking very little damage themselves.

As far as the characters, each one is very well rounded. The Monk hit for 150 HP one round with his fury of blows attack. He also has a very high touch AC and CMD. Other then SU or spells I’m not quite sure how to attack him. The Gunslinger is the easiest to hit, but the huge advantage for the particular class is that all attacks within about half the distance are counted as against the touch AC. Finally the Cleric is possibly the most powerful. Not only is his AC very high, he has multiple 9th level spells that are very difficult to fight against (Astral Projection, Gate, Miracle, and a few others).

I know I sound like I am complaining, but I am genuinely enjoying it so far. I have just come to a point where there are few monsters left in the bestiary that will challenge them. The tentative plan for next time is to create from scratch 3 or 4 level 20 characters, and have them fight after a little role-playing. Maybe even for the competition of who gets to run a small city.

Thanks a ton for your help (and sorry this was a lengthy response)! I am not sure I will continue this campaign after next session, but we will have to see how it goes.
 

oper

First Post
while I have never played at epic level, It feels like, at level 20, there is nothing to challange you on this plane (material)

Planar travel seems like a good way to challange the PC, exchange the orc tribe in Paradox's example for say, a demon horde, and maybe the battle is a bit harder (demon powers vs whatever the orcs were)

Also, as a powerful cleric, I can see him/her leading a holy army to vanquish (alignment opposing enemy) and help (their alignment) win their planar struggle

There is always that. I am really considering that if the campaign continues for a long time the ending to the entire thing would be a fight with Asmodeus, God of Hell / King of the Devils. Then again there is no way to really get the stats for a character like that, let alone allow the PCs to gain enough power to face a true god. The more I think about a horde of demons The better I like it.

Thank you for the suggestion!
 

paradox42

First Post
There is always that. I am really considering that if the campaign continues for a long time the ending to the entire thing would be a fight with Asmodeus, God of Hell / King of the Devils. Then again there is no way to really get the stats for a character like that, let alone allow the PCs to gain enough power to face a true god.
Sure there is. Deities & Demigods has stats for lots of gods. And then there's the Immortal's Handbook, though that was only released as a PDF. But I used the IH to run two games with divine PCs all the way up the ladder until they were many times more powerful than the deities they'd started out worshiping as 1st-level mortals long ago. Of course, both the books mentioned are for 3.X rather than PF, but you could use them as baselines if nothing else.

Statting up a god is usually a lot of work, but if you have time and are thinking long-term anyway... there are ways to do it credibly.

So far we have had 1 session. The first half was a few small fights leading up eventually to the Mu Spore (taken from bestiary 2). It is CR 20, but was a rather worthy opponent. Even though nearly everyone had their full attack each round, the beast lasted about 10 rounds and took down the gunslinger to about ¼ hp. The problem I had with this was that a major part of its attack is to be able to grapple each person every time it hits. Because every character in the party has an item with freedom of movement on it, or had it cast, I was never able to execute this grapple.
FOM is to be expected at 20th, yes. Most people by then- even in a game that started at 1st and went all the way up- will have FOM items or some other way to keep it on constantly. It's too useful not to do that. The only way you'd really prevent that, as a GM, would be disallowing custom magic items and never giving them any that grant it. And not only is that vindictive and railroady, it's also pointless in the long run- because they can just buff instead by casting it, as you noted.

This gets to one of the top things people have trouble with at high levels: dealing with party powers in some manner other than just taking them away. Basically, it's a learning process of just accepting that you won't be able to use that type of attack against them; smart enemies will recognize the fact almost immediately and switch gears to something else (or better yet, use information-gathering spells/investigation before ever meeting the party to learn of their strengths and weaknesses in advance).

This is the main reason NPCs are more effective than by-the-book monsters at high level; NPCs are usually more adaptable and have more resources to bring to bear.

The next part of the session was a little bit of role-playing in order to find a Jabberwock (CR 23 also taken from bestiary 2). Part of the role-playing was finding out they would be facing a Jabberwock and a chance to prepare for the fight. This was definitely a mistake as doing so meant that they were able to take it down in about 3 rounds and taking very little damage themselves.
Another example of why Divination is one of the most powerful schools of magic- despite being so often overlooked. In my divine games, the PCs almost never acted without using every information-gathering resource they had, as many times as they could, to wring the cosmos for all the information it would give them on their enemies. We'd often spend two sessions just investigating, before ever getting into an actual combat.

This isn't everybody's idea of "fun," and certainly a couple of the players would get bored during sessions like this- but power-gamers love this sort of thing and invariably do it when given the opportunity. From your earlier descriptions it sounds like you have a party full of that type, so I'm guessing they had a grand time figuring out how to beat it, even before the actual combat.

Some advice from personal experience here: if you're decent at multitasking, you can take advantage of down-time like that, time spent on nothing but investigation, making preparations for future encounters. Players usually spend a few minutes castings spells or using skill checks to get answers from you the GM, and then tens of minutes arguing about the results and what to do about them. Those tens of minutes are when you can use the lull to do other stuff.

As far as the characters, each one is very well rounded. The Monk hit for 150 HP one round with his fury of blows attack.
And believe it or not, that's actually pretty low damage for a Full Attack from a 20th-level character focused on fighting. I've often seen serious tanks (Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins) dish out that much damage down around level 13, let alone 20. With high-level monsters, you want to avoid giving the tank/front-line-fighter the chance to use a Full Attack action whenever possible- stay mobile. If you let the tank Full Attack, you may as well be holding out your neck and saying "kill me." :)

He also has a very high touch AC and CMD. Other then SU or spells I’m not quite sure how to attack him.
That's the Monk's strength, yes. A 20th-level Monk should be absurdly difficult to actually hit, or get in any sort of Combat Maneuver. Monks are primarily a defensive class, as James Jacobs himself has stated on multiple occasions. You have the right idea- don't try to attack him physically. Use magic first- then, if the enemies manage to get him helpless or restrained somehow, they can open up a can of whoop-ass at that point.

The Gunslinger is the easiest to hit, but the huge advantage for the particular class is that all attacks within about half the distance are counted as against the touch AC. Finally the Cleric is possibly the most powerful. Not only is his AC very high, he has multiple 9th level spells that are very difficult to fight against (Astral Projection, Gate, Miracle, and a few others).
To be expected, on both counts- Gunslinger should almost never miss at that level; the key there is she's a ranged attacker and can't easily deal with enemies that get up in her face. The Cleric was considered the most powerful class in 3.X with good reason- a buffed-up Cleric wading into melee could usually out-damage a single-classed Fighter or Paladin with ease, and be tougher to damage or take down to boot. Hence the term you might have seen floating around the Internet: CoDZilla (CoD stands for "Cleric or Druid"). The key with a Cleric is, they usually need lots of buffs to get that powerful- so lots of Dispels will ruin their day. And then there's the nuclear option, Disjunction, but that should be used sparingly if at all because it's a serious "ruin your day and possibly your character" effect.

I know I sound like I am complaining,
No, actually you don't. :) You sound like exactly what your first post said you were, a guy who wanted to try something Cool and learned only after he started that he's in a little over his head. As I've related above, you already have the right idea on several points, so it seems to me you're off to an excellent start so far.

but I am genuinely enjoying it so far. I have just come to a point where there are few monsters left in the bestiary that will challenge them. The tentative plan for next time is to create from scratch 3 or 4 level 20 characters, and have them fight after a little role-playing. Maybe even for the competition of who gets to run a small city.
And the most important thing by far is- if you and the players are having fun, then You're Doing It Right.

You have already run into the fact, though, that monsters aren't as effective as NPCs at these levels. So going through the exercise of statting up new characters during session time should help- pay close attention to what the players say and do when they make them, you'll often hear tips for how to make such characters yourself. And then go make some. Once you've done it a few times, and seen what your players do with the rules, you'll start to notice certain combos and builds that Just Plain Work- and then you can use that knowledge to build such characters more quickly. This will cut down your prep time considerably.

Also, it is often the case that you won't need complete stats for a high-level NPC, because (especially if they're enemies) they won't be around "on stage" very long in the game. You can therefore often leave some things undecided or blank, until the NPC shows up in game, and then you can "fill in the blank" on the fly with whatever seems to work at the time. This, too, can considerably cut down your prep-work. Many, many NPCs I used in my long-running Epic/Divine games were nothing more than names and a few jotted class-and-level notes on sheets of paper, on my side of the screen. And the players never knew.

Unfortunately it's very difficult to convey just how to get away with doing this; it's more art than science. My best advice is to try leaving a few small things (like low-level spells on an NPC spellcaster, for example) blank at first, and see how it works in play- then gradually try more and more things until you're comfortable doing it most of the time. Experience is definitely the best teacher.
 

redwullf

Explorer
Hey guys!

So this is my third or fourth time DM-ing (the first few were one-shots) and I'm pretty much in over my head. I made the mistake of letting the players do a level 20 character build with very little restrictions. The original plan was to just do another one-shot, but they got so attached to the characters that they want to turn it into a small campaign.

Anyways I was wondering if any of you have advice for me. The characters in the group are a Cleric, Monk, and Gunslinger (he took the stats from the book that isn't quite out yet). Not only are they all level 20, they were made at level 20 so each one has some very powerful gear (that I doubt you would normally see in a 1-20 campaign).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

First advice. Tell the players "No" and reboot your campaign at level 1.

If they threaten to mutiny, then it's time to pull out all stops. I recommend Demons or Devils (a trip to the Abyss should help them find perspective again). If there's no plausible way to end up in Hell or the Abyss, then don't forget the ultimate sledgehammer in your toolbox: An Ancient Dragon or two. That outta realign stars nicely. Don't overlook _any_ of the abilities such opponents will have - use them all to your best advantage against the party's notable limitations.

Simply put, if you can't help them see the benefits of actually playing characters that they can develop and appreciate (from 1st level), then you'll want to bring the big guns. This, or this, or this, or this should do nicely.
 
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paradox42

First Post
Simply put, if you can't help them see the benefits of actually playing characters that they can develop and appreciate (from 1st level), then you'll want to bring the big guns. This, or this, or this, or this should do nicely.
If you actually read the OP's reply to my question of what the first session was like, you'll see that he did, in fact, throw a Jabberwock at them- and it went down in 3 rounds without putting much more than scratches on them. As a GM who has actually run 20th level adventures, this does not surprise me in the least, and I can say your recommendations will do little more than give the party XP and more bloodthirst.

Saying "Don't do it and start over at level 1" is not a helpful thing to add to the OP's question, which was "How do I run at level 20, even for a little while?" Low-level evangelism is not constructive here. If you are incapable of running a level 20 game, that's fine, but don't assume that everybody is or must be.
 

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