Sum Mon III - Dretch - Unbalanced?

[Speaks With Stone]

Why wouldn't you know all of the abilities? If you can summon one and talk to it, at any point you could summon one and discover all of its abilities.

Sure you get lots of stuff for free, but it requires full round action to get them. If someone wants to summon a critter for non-combat use, then you should be happy that they are thinking about their capabilities and using them intelligently.

Also, if you have to summon a critter, tell it what to do, then anyone who speaks draconic will hear you broadcasting every move ahead of time (depending on the timing).

As for intelligence, I will say that the 6 INT half-orc barbarian I travel with regularly ignores what I say, I fully believe that he understands me. If he were subject to some form of compulsion, then he would follow orders.

No sense in beating someone up for finding a cool use for their spell.

 

[Tom Cashel]

edit:

I didn't say I would beat him up. I merely suggested that trying to get an INT 5 Tanar'ri to do what you want might be vexing.

And sure, he could always summon one of them and ask it what it can do...but can an INT 5 creature wax poetic on its abilities in terms a dwarven wizard could understand?

In any case, what Bronn is suggesting is that he will summon a Dretch for the first time ever at our next game session, and proceed to make use of all its abilities by ordering it in Draconic. Seems a bit out-of-hand to me.

 

[Bronn Spellforger]

In any case, what Bronn is suggesting is that he will summon a Dretch for the first time ever at our next game session, and proceed to make use of all its abilities by ordering it in Draconic. Seems a bit out-of-hand to me.

I dunno, Tom. I quote the spell description: "If the character can communicate with the outsider, the character can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

I don't think summoning a Tanar'ri (which takes a full round, you may remember) to perform something within it's abilities is out-of-hand.

But then again, you're the DM. Just give me a heads up as to which rules we'll be following this week.

 

[Lord Ben]

How long does the spell really last? I doubt it'll be all that bad. Plus it's evil if used to summon an evil creature.

 

[coyote6]

Re: Re: Re: Sum Mon III - Dretch - Unbalanced?

I had a band of 4 dretches attack a PC group (which were, IIRC, 4th level, with almost no magical weapons). The dreteches died miserablly. They hit all of one PC telekinetically. The save DC on their scare is all of a 12 -- not too hard to make; only one NPC failed, and since it only lasts for two rounds, he was back quite quickly. They can't see through their own darkness, so it's mainly useful for confusion & defensive use. Stinking cloud was by far the most useful -- but that's only once per day, and the DC is relatively low (DC 13). It was mainly useful in the fight because the PCs were inside a tavern, and the cloud followed darkness -- so the PCs spent a number of rounds stumbling around in the dark trying to get out of the cloud, so one or two eventually failed the Fort save. Meanwhile, the darkness made the dretches mostly useless.

Remember that the dretches' attack roll with telekinetically hurled objects is their BAB (+2) plus their Int mod (-3) -- total attack bonus: -1. And it's not a ranged touch attack. Throwing objects, they'll be doing all of 1d6 damage. Throwing weapons, they could do more -- but they still will rarely hit.

Now, a clever wizard could summon some dretches, have them blanket the area with darkness & maybe a stinking cloud, then summon some baatezu devil, that can see through the darkness & is immune to the cloud's poisonous vapors. Summon monster II will conjure up a lemure, which is pretty wimpy -- but a handful of those, against PCs blinded by darkness & choking in a stinking cloud might be an interesting fight. It'll take, what, summon monster VI to get more dangerous devils?

Assuming the devils and demons don't fight amongst themselves, of course.

Good point, Tom. I would like to officially declare this spell broken beyond repair (insert derogatory comment about Forgotten Realms, Monte Cook, or the Sage, here)

Ah, I believe it's more customary to name Sean Reynolds rather than Monte Cook (unless the subject is Monte's alt. ranger or one of the Books of Eldritch Might, naturally).

The Sage is, of course, nigh-mandatory in all cases.

 

[Krystoff]

In the case of knowing what certain monsters are capable of, I would say give them a knowledge(Planes) check and be done with it.

Should be an easy skill check (10 or 15) as they are summonable by almost every 5th level wizard/ sorcerer out there.

Their powers should be something that most wizards know (With the right knowledge skill. Just like in Biology class cept a lot cooler.

"Now class, this is Bob the Dretch. Say hello to the class Bob. Now be a good little dretch and surround them all with darkness. Good boy."

 

[Victim]

What is the alignment on this character, and the rest of the group? While good wizards are allowed to summon demons, others would probably look askance at such behavior.

I'd probably have my character attempt to waste any summoned demons or devils.

Drethces aren't exactly great spellcasters because their caster level is so low. Also, they're weak enough for their deaths to be incidental. For example, a fighter with cleave might attack one because he can kill it, and then use cleave to keep up his attacks on whatever he's been hitting.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

So, if a Cleric with the Good domain summons a Hound Archon, per se, the spell is cast as a good spell. That means that a 9th level caster casts it as a 10th level spell. That just pertains to duration correct? Same thing with an evil character and a Dretch.

 

[hong]

So, if a Cleric with the Good domain summons a Hound Archon, per se, the spell is cast as a good spell. That means that a 9th level caster casts it as a 10th level spell. That just pertains to duration correct? Same thing with an evil character and a Dretch.

Duration and chance of dispelling, via dispel magic.

 

[Soltares]

>So.... knowledge of Summon Monster III gives a character >knowledge of all the abilities of a Dretch?

If you can talk to the thing (which I'll admit, some summoners never bother to learn to do), you can simply summon one and ASK it what it can do, perhaps even having it do a demonstration on those lovely cows over there. It doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know that it can waggle its fingers and make big cloud of stinky-poo-gas, or make things fly around and poke people and stuff...

After all, any Intelligence 18 Wizard who doesn't bother to summon and test-drive creatures before entering a combat probably doesn't bother to look up how Fireball works before casting it at a monster standing in front of him, eh?

It is a hassle having to spend skill points learning Abysal, Infernal, Celestial and / or various elemental tongues to make full use of the spell, but as you've noticed, this one *application* of this single spell, Summon Monster III, ends up granting four other spells worth of abilities, if used well, as a side-bonus to its actual application.

There is nothing better for a Sorcerer, instead of worrying about learning spells like Stinking Cloud or Darkness, he can simply summon a critter to handle the 'light work.'

Summon Monster IV, with the Lantern Archon and the Imp, also include a small raft of spell-like ability options.

Luckily a summoned thing can't exercise their own summoning abilities, or else the Triton and Dretch would be vastly overpowered.